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IFR Cancellation Question



 
 
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  #71  
Old December 10th 06, 07:31 PM posted to rec.aviation.ifr
A Lieberma
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Posts: 318
Default IFR Cancellation Question

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in
ups.com:

A Lieberma wrote:

If it's an IFR plane in front of you, you won't be cleared for the
visual to an UNcontrolled airport until that plane cancels his IFR.

An uncontrolled airport is literally shut down for IFR arrivals until
that IFR cancellation is received by the plane in front of you. Thus
the courtesy / importance to cancel as soon as you can so the person
behind you won't have to hold.


That's not correct. Visual separation can be used between multiple
aircraft conducting visual approaches at uncontrolled airports.


What you say Steve could very well be, but in my three short years working
in the IFR system, I have yet to be cleared for a visual with another IFR
plane in front of me in VMC conditions.

I have been vectored for "separation" which I took it to mean that I would
have to wait until IFR cancellation was received from the plane in front of
me.

Sounds like different handling from different controllers???

Dunno, but the above has been my experiences (can't say if it's
"technically" correct, but my experiences nether the less).

Allen
  #72  
Old December 10th 06, 07:33 PM posted to rec.aviation.ifr
Steven P. McNicoll[_2_]
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Posts: 721
Default IFR Cancellation Question


A Lieberma wrote:
"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in
s.com:

What if you're just a couple of miles from the field but haven't
reported it in sight?


Surely I hope you are not talking from experience on this scenario???


Why?



If so, what exactly did happen?


It hasn't happened with me, it will inevitably happen where controllers
do not terminate flight following until pilots report the field in
sight.



On a *clear* day where visibility is above marginal VFR, couple miles from
the airport, I am betting what you are describing is a very, very and very
rare occurance.


How much are you willing to bet?



And would your workload permit VFR flight following on days where MVFR and
IFR traffic are intermingling?


Yes.



What you describe above would **almost** sound like an emergency situation
for a lost pilot and nothing near the norm???


Why is that?

  #73  
Old December 10th 06, 08:06 PM posted to rec.aviation.ifr
Everett M. Greene[_2_]
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Posts: 40
Default IFR Cancellation Question

Newps writes:
Robert Chambers wrote:

Really, then how does the system know you landed and not crashed on
approach?


ATC as in approach takes no overt action. The tower controller hits the
land line to approach and says "N12345 is on the ground" end of IFR flight.


He does no such thing. No calls, whatsoever. There's no need to.


Are you saying that a telephone call isn't made or are
you saying that nobody in the tower closes the flight
plan?
  #74  
Old December 10th 06, 08:11 PM posted to rec.aviation.ifr
Matt Whiting
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Posts: 2,232
Default IFR Cancellation Question

Newps wrote:



Ron Natalie wrote:

Newps wrote:

Really, then how does the system know you landed and not crashed on
approach?



The tower will know if you landed. What did you think happened?





I don't know how it happens, but the requirement is that they're
supposed to notice whether I have arrived at my destination not
whether I was handed off by approach. This means one of two
things:

1. Tower must tell the system that I've landed.
2. Tower must tell the system that I haven't landed.




The tower is "the system". At a tower without radar the approach
control will call on the landline and tell them about the IFR inbound.
At the agreed upon time/place the approach control tells the aircraft to
contact tower. Aircraft lands. Tower goes back to conversation on how
bad the Bears quarterback really is. The only time the tower calls the
approach control back is if something unusual happens. Aircraft never
calls tower at the expected time, aircraft has some kind of problem that
requires him to manuver unexpectedly thereby possibly affecting
separation of others inbound or outbound, etc. A normal approach and
landing is what's expected.
In a tower with radar all the above happens without a call on the
landline. The transfer of information is automated.


In the case of the nonradar tower, does the flight just "expire" in the
computer or does the approach controller kill the flight once the
hand-off to tower has been confirmed? If the pilot misses the approach
and then pops back to approach, do they have to enter the flight back
into the computer?


Matt
  #75  
Old December 10th 06, 08:12 PM posted to rec.aviation.ifr
A Lieberma
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Posts: 318
Default IFR Cancellation Question

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in
ups.com:

On a *clear* day where visibility is above marginal VFR, couple miles
from the airport, I am betting what you are describing is a very,
very and very rare occurance.


How much are you willing to bet?


Again, from your experiences, sounds like I am right....

What you describe above would **almost** sound like an emergency
situation for a lost pilot and nothing near the norm???


Why is that?


Ummm lost pilot doesn't bode well for traffic????? Be realistic, clear
day, VMC and the pilot doesn't see the airport within a couple of miles?

Sounds like a problem, not the norm.

Allen
  #76  
Old December 10th 06, 11:01 PM posted to rec.aviation.ifr
Ron Natalie
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Posts: 1,175
Default IFR Cancellation Question

A Lieberma wrote:

What you say Steve could very well be, but in my three short years working
in the IFR system, I have yet to be cleared for a visual with another IFR
plane in front of me in VMC conditions.


Happened to me yesterday at Dulles. Reported the MD80 ahead of me
in sight, got cleared for the visual even though we were both 5 miles
out or so.


  #77  
Old December 10th 06, 11:13 PM posted to rec.aviation.ifr
Roy Smith
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Posts: 478
Default IFR Cancellation Question

In article ,
Ron Natalie wrote:

A Lieberma wrote:

What you say Steve could very well be, but in my three short years working
in the IFR system, I have yet to be cleared for a visual with another IFR
plane in front of me in VMC conditions.


Happened to me yesterday at Dulles. Reported the MD80 ahead of me
in sight, got cleared for the visual even though we were both 5 miles
out or so.


It might be tough to maintain visual in cruddy weather when the thing
you're trying to watch is moving 60 kts faster than you :-)
  #78  
Old December 11th 06, 12:08 AM posted to rec.aviation.ifr
A Lieberma
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 318
Default IFR Cancellation Question

Ron Natalie wrote in
:

A Lieberma wrote:

What you say Steve could very well be, but in my three short years
working in the IFR system, I have yet to be cleared for a visual with
another IFR plane in front of me in VMC conditions.


Happened to me yesterday at Dulles. Reported the MD80 ahead of me
in sight, got cleared for the visual even though we were both 5 miles
out or so.


You were landing at a controlled airport which I can fully understand (I.E
me reporting visual of AC in front of me and getting the instructions,
Sundowner 1943L, maintain seperation, cleared for the visual approach).

I have never received that instruction at an UNcontrolled airport. Like I
said in my prior post, I am not saying it can't be done, it's just that I
have never been cleared for the visual without the traffic in front of me
cancelling their IFR at an UNcontrolled airport.

Allen
  #79  
Old December 11th 06, 12:21 AM posted to rec.aviation.ifr
Ron Natalie
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Posts: 1,175
Default IFR Cancellation Question

Roy Smith wrote:

What you say Steve could very well be, but in my three short years working
in the IFR system, I have yet to be cleared for a visual with another IFR
plane in front of me in VMC conditions.

Happened to me yesterday at Dulles. Reported the MD80 ahead of me
in sight, got cleared for the visual even though we were both 5 miles
out or so.


It might be tough to maintain visual in cruddy weather when the thing
you're trying to watch is moving 60 kts faster than you :-)


I'm unlikely to hit him :-)

Actually, keeping the Navion in cruise configuration until a half
mile out will keep up with an MD80 on approach.

It was the 767 breathing down my back behind me that was more of a problem.
  #80  
Old December 11th 06, 01:38 AM posted to rec.aviation.ifr
Steven P. McNicoll[_2_]
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Posts: 721
Default IFR Cancellation Question


Matt Whiting wrote:

In the case of the nonradar tower, does the flight just "expire" in the
computer or does the approach controller kill the flight once the
hand-off to tower has been confirmed? If the pilot misses the approach
and then pops back to approach, do they have to enter the flight back
into the computer?


The computer is used for processing and transmitting flight data. The
destination airport is the end of the line. There's nobody left to
notify.

 




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