Pegasus or ....?

On Nov 29, 5:16 pm, (Michel Talon) wrote:
By the way, you can find the other manufacturers at the same place.

Thanks for the links. I've also got the Johnson flight tests for both
the 19 and the Cirrus, and again there isn't much between the two
(afaik Johnson never tested the Pegase). The 19 has a slight edge, or
would with equal wing loading. But IMHO handling is a factor in XC
speed - the easier and more forgiving a ship is to fly, the more you
can concentrate on tactics - and that can't be discerned from polars.


Dan

Dan G wrote:
On Nov 29, 5:16 pm, (Michel Talon) wrote:
By the way, you can find the other manufacturers at the same place.

Thanks for the links. I've also got the Johnson flight tests for both
the 19 and the Cirrus, and again there isn't much between the two
(afaik Johnson never tested the Pegase). The 19 has a slight edge, or
would with equal wing loading. But IMHO handling is a factor in XC
speed - the easier and more forgiving a ship is to fly, the more you
can concentrate on tactics - and that can't be discerned from polars.


Dan

You may have discovered my bias from my previous post, but as much as i
liked the ASW15, i disliked the ASW19. For me, it has bad handling,
doesn't climb well. I have flewn the Libelle, the Cirrus, the LS1, LS3,
LS4 and many others, and liked them, but not the 19. Of course this is
very dependant on each individual, because i am sure many people like
the 19. Anyways, objectively, the performance difference between the
Pegase and the 19 is the same as between the Discus and the Pegase. The
handling of the Pegase is "modern", same type as the LS4, etc. and quite
different from the handling of old style gliders. This is perhaps the
reason why someone characterized it as a truck ... Personnally i like
its stability, and it climbs very well. Also the air brakes are very
effective. Of course for an american pilot, it is probably not a good
choice due to the 3000 hours limit. I think it is a shame that Centrair
has handled this issue in such a deplorable way.

--

Michel TALON

Tony Verhulst wrote:

Pegasus is a very good choice.

Agreed.

It doesn't have any bad habits..

Only one, IMHO. It is a handful in a cross wind take off. And, after
having seen 2 other 19's connect with solid objects after veering off to
the side in a xwind departure, I suspect that my opinion is shared with
others.

In my 2 or 3 years as a part owner in a 19, I can't remember a single
xwind take off that I really was happy with. OTOH, take offs in my LS6
in similar conditions are "no brainers".

The ASW 19 (and the ASW 20) cross wind ability can often be improved by
starting the takeoff roll with the spoilers open. This might also work
for the Pegasus.

If it does help, then it's an easy matter to learn to prevent the
occasional heartburn it causes the line crew and the tow pilot when they
see the spoilers open at the start of the launch.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA
* Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly
* "Transponders in Sailplanes" http://tinyurl.com/y739x4
* "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" at www.motorglider.org

Cats wrote:
On Nov 29, 5:17 pm, Martin Gregorie
wrote:
Cats wrote:
On Nov 29, 3:22 am, "Bill" wrote:
snip
A sleeve can not be added to the elevator
connection due to lack of space, but this connection is exposed enough that
using a safety pin is not a problem.
snip
I've just brought one and the elevator is self-connecting - it's a
101a.

If you can find one, go for a Pegase 90 - they are later than the 101
models and have automatic hook-ups for all controls.

I've got what I've got - I'll get on with flying it! And I'm
suspecting I'll never need another glider, unless I manage to break it.

Apologies, Cats - that was aimed at the OP, not you!

Our club's Peg 90 was my first step into high performance gliders after
the Junior and I really enjoyed flying it. I liked its feel and handling
very much and found it much more comfortable than a Discus for flights
beyond 3 hours or so. FWIW, I agree with you - if I owned a Peg I would
not be looking to change it. They climb nicely in weak lift and run well
with a bit of water on board.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

On Nov 29, 10:19 pm, Martin Gregorie
wrote:
Cats wrote:
On Nov 29, 5:17 pm, Martin Gregorie
wrote:
Cats wrote:
On Nov 29, 3:22 am, "Bill" wrote:
snip
A sleeve can not be added to the elevator
connection due to lack of space, but this connection is exposed enough that
using a safety pin is not a problem.
snip
I've just brought one and the elevator is self-connecting - it's a
101a.

If you can find one, go for a Pegase 90 - they are later than the 101
models and have automatic hook-ups for all controls.

I've got what I've got - I'll get on with flying it! And I'm
suspecting I'll never need another glider, unless I manage to break it.

Apologies, Cats - that was aimed at the OP, not you!

Our club's Peg 90 was my first step into high performance gliders after
the Junior and I really enjoyed flying it. I liked its feel and handling
very much and found it much more comfortable than a Discus for flights
beyond 3 hours or so.

As a fully-paid up member of the short-arse club, the Discus b at my
club isn't suitable. By the time I'm sat where I have a fighting
chance of getting the wheel back down my head is too near the canopy.
It's a pit the gear lever is on the port side - starboard would avoid
any possibility of confusing it with the airbrakes - but it's much
better. The other good thing about being short is that being well
forward in the cockpit improves the readward view - really tall people
must suffer in some gliders with the fuselage behind the canopy
limiting that view.

FWIW, I agree with you - if I owned a Peg I would
not be looking to change it. They climb nicely in weak lift and run well
with a bit of water on board.

Since I fly in Scotland, I hope to fly it in wave pretty soon!

Eric Greenwell wrote:

The ASW 19 (and the ASW 20) cross wind ability can often be improved by
starting the takeoff roll with the spoilers open. This might also work
for the Pegasus.

I think the Peg is the best of the three on this point. I've never flown
a 19, but it you examine a Peg and a 19 side by side, the Peg looks to
have bigger ailerons. I mostly winched the Peg, but when I did aero tow
it I didn't have any particular wing drop problems.

The 20 is easily the worst behaved with its tiny ailerons - even the
owners manual says they have so little bite that you should start the
takeoff roll in negative flap.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

Sorry Martin,

the 20 has full-span ailerons which aren't tiny by any means.
Negative flaps on initial ground roll is standard procedure for any flapped
ship, and if you do it with the 20, it is pretty difficult to drop a wing.

Bert

"Martin Gregorie" wrote in message
...
The 20 is easily the worst behaved with its tiny ailerons - even the
owners manual says they have so little bite that you should start the
takeoff roll in negative flap.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

In what way do the "modern" glass ships differ from the older ones in
the handling department? Why would that account for someones opinion
that the Peg handled like a truck? I would think that a modern ship
would handle better than an older one, not worse. My only time in a
glass single place is in my ASW 15 and I think the handing is fine. Of
course, my comparison gliders are two seaters (L13, 2-33, Grob) . Not
exactly nimble ships. Just how different is an LS4/Peg etc. from my
15? Roll rate? Lighter controls? Is it a case of not missing what I've
never had?

On the control connection issue, the ASW 15 is not automatic and
getting those safety pins in was a real pain. I put the safety sleeves
on and now its a non-issue. I check the connections at least 3-4 times
and ALWAYS do a PCC. Manual hook ups is not a reason for me to cross a
ship my list of potential new (to me) gliders.

Mike
ASW 15 but in the market

Bert Willing wrote:
Sorry Martin,

the 20 has full-span ailerons which aren't tiny by any means.
Negative flaps on initial ground roll is standard procedure for any flapped
ship, and if you do it with the 20, it is pretty difficult to drop a wing.

Yes, I know the flaps deflect half as far as the ailerons, but there's
still very little bite below 30-35 kts even with a notch of reflex flap
and the ground roll felt very busy at first.

I had a wing drop or two among my first flights in my 20 - something I
never experienced on the club's Peg - or the Williams Soaring one
either. I don't recall much difference in the weather conditions during
those launches either - certainly nothing worth commenting on.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

Martin Gregorie wrote:
Bert Willing wrote:
Sorry Martin,

the 20 has full-span ailerons which aren't tiny by any means.
Negative flaps on initial ground roll is standard procedure for any
flapped ship, and if you do it with the 20, it is pretty difficult to
drop a wing.

Yes, I know the flaps deflect half as far as the ailerons, but there's
still very little bite below 30-35 kts even with a notch of reflex flap
and the ground roll felt very busy at first.

My ASW 20 C had plenty of "bite" by 20 knots - it was only the first 100
feet or so that might have a wing drop.


I had a wing drop or two among my first flights in my 20 - something I
never experienced on the club's Peg - or the Williams Soaring one
either. I don't recall much difference in the weather conditions during
those launches either - certainly nothing worth commenting on.

Some flapped gliders have a higher angle of attack when sitting on the
ground, compared to similar unflapped gliders. This can cause the tip to
stall more easily in the "neutral" flap position, but using negative
flap improves the situation. It also reduces the effects of crosswinds.

Why a higher angle of attack? One reason is to allow a slower touch down
speed with main and tail touching at the same time; another is a longer
gear extension can provide more pilot protection in an off field landing
(more clearance), and more protection in a very hard or crash landing
(more room to absorb energy).

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA
* Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly
* "Transponders in Sailplanes" http://tinyurl.com/y739x4
* "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" at www.motorglider.org