We need an ASW-19 rebirth for $25,000

On 14/03/2017 14:09, wrote:

What we need in soaring is a new glider built for a reasonable price.
$150,000 for a new glider is just not even a consideration for most
people. Let's face it, you can get a low mileage Ferrari for half
that price!

Lots of people have explained why this is not going to happen. But maybe
I can suggest an alternative.

Set up a company that makes simple affordable, practical closed
trailers, rigging aids, tow out aids, radios, flarm kit, loggers and
instruments. Parachutes too while you are about it. It is essential that
as much as possible should be standardised, with "entry level" feature
set and mass produced.

Then set your self up selling "refurb kits" for all the 2nd hand gliders
that are quietly rotting away in storage, with rusty and/or home made
trailers, radios etc that no longer meet today's standards, parachutes
that are time ex and lacking flarm, GPS and loggers etc.

While you are about it, set up a factory with cheap labour to refinish
those gliders in 2 part polyurethane.

Your new ships will still require all of the above. Irrespective whether
you start with a new magically cheap airframe, or a proven 2nd hand one,
you still need all of the above.

On Thursday, March 16, 2017 at 5:28:14 AM UTC-4, Ian wrote:
On 14/03/2017 14:09, wrote:

What we need in soaring is a new glider built for a reasonable price.
$150,000 for a new glider is just not even a consideration for most
people. Let's face it, you can get a low mileage Ferrari for half
that price!

Lots of people have explained why this is not going to happen. But maybe
I can suggest an alternative.

Set up a company that makes simple affordable, practical closed
trailers, rigging aids, tow out aids, radios, flarm kit, loggers and
instruments. Parachutes too while you are about it. It is essential that
as much as possible should be standardised, with "entry level" feature
set and mass produced.

Then set your self up selling "refurb kits" for all the 2nd hand gliders
that are quietly rotting away in storage, with rusty and/or home made
trailers, radios etc that no longer meet today's standards, parachutes
that are time ex and lacking flarm, GPS and loggers etc.

While you are about it, set up a factory with cheap labour to refinish
those gliders in 2 part polyurethane.

Your new ships will still require all of the above. Irrespective whether
you start with a new magically cheap airframe, or a proven 2nd hand one,
you still need all of the above.


There is a tremendous amount of cost and labor involved in refinishing a glider. more than most realize. if you haven't done one start to finish, you don't know... doing a total refinish on old gliders is a good idea, but the cost of the refinish makes that concept difficult if the air-frame isn't worth much anyway. perfect example: it's not profitable to buy a standard cirrus for 14k, pump 5-7K worth of materials into it (not to mention labor, which is also several thousand.) and then sell it for 22k (the going rate for a pristine one.) it's a losing proposition. these gliders are anywhere from 30 to almost 50 years old. it can be profitable if you do it yourself, as a sole proprietor, but as soon as you have to pay people, the profit margin gets chipped away, and most (if not all) goes to the employees.

there's lots of economies-of-scale stuff that goes into building cheap cars.. Phil nailed it mostly. i think someone really visionary with an automotive or aerospace composite manufacturing background, and alot of capital could do something impressive. but again, the demand to support moderate production isn't there. it goes back to the cirrus example. these gliders have long life cycles.
i don't think price, and supply and demand of gliders is the issue, i think it's supply and demand of pilots. unfortunately it's a pretty unique game we play. it consumes time, and money, and gets you strange looks at the office when you don't know whose playing in the superbowl, but you know who won the last WGC, and where the next one is.

i think in order to grow the sport one of the things that would help would be wider media exposure. also, you have to make it sexy. many pilots look seriously dorky. sorry, but we suck at being fashionable. watch a redbull airrace, those pilots are wearing cool looking "decalized" helmets, firesuits, gloves, et cet. it has sex appeal. it looks dangerous and exciting. i'm not suggesting we wear firesuits, that's stupid. but we wear floppy hats and grimy button down shirts. it's just not sexy to the casual observer. so it doesn't get a ton of attention, so it doesn't attract a lot of enthusiasm the way that nascar, dirtbike racing, or indy does.

the equipment is sufficient. it's marketing and drawing attention to our sport.
on the club side, there has to be a huge social component to build cohesion..

TL,DR;

We need more pilots, not more gliders
soaring is not sexy
clubs need to be as much social, as they are aviation.

ATOS VR used prices are about 17,000 Euro. For 20:1 L/D. I flew hang gliders for 30 years, and got into sailplanes in 1999, just about the time the ATOS was introduced. The increase in weight, T/O and landing speed, coupled with my aging knees and body precluded an attempt to embrace the new technology. Instead, I bought a 25 year old glider (Centrair Pegase 101A) for about the same price and flew the heck out of it. With 40:1 L/D and a 135 kt. Vne, I got over 200 hours the first year and way more kilometers of XC flight than I had ever experienced with a hang glider. Plus, I always (well nearly always) landed back at the home airfield. On a wheel.

But I still miss hang gliding. It was the most fun I ever had. Soaring is close to the same fun, but not quite.

Not sure that $25k in today's dollars has ever translated to a new glider.
http://www.dollartimes.com/inflation...7000&year=1968

For example, $7K in 1968 is now just under $50k

That means your ASW-19 would have cost $5k delivered when it was originally released in 1975...

Long story short, Bob K is taking orders, get your HP-24 while you can!

Dan- I haven't been really involved in hang gliding since 2002 or so, but as far as I KNOW, "Licensing" of hang glider and paraglider pilots is still not within the purview of the FAA. In the US, pilot rating and instruction is administered by the US Hang Gliding and Paragliding Association (USHGPA), headquartered in Colorado Springs, CO.

Many flying sites and commercial operations for foot launch, ground tow (winch) or aerotow require liability insurance. This insurance is available to the pilot, site owner or commercial operator through the USHGPA. It is an included benefit of USHGPA membership, or a purchased certificate of endorsement for the particular site, club, landowner, commercial operator or government entity that has influence or financial interest in the particular site or operation.

In order to fly at one of these insured sites, USHGPA membership (or reciprocal foreign organization), and applicable pilot ratings must be presented.

This is a good discussion. The closest thing to what you're talking about is the HPH 304C. I recently emailed Sean Franke and asked for a quote and was told that nobody had ordered one since 2014. A bulk order with cheaper US made trailers may be the way to go. The other key component to this is currently there's only 1 Bank that has loans specific to gliders. Yes you can take out a home equity line to partially finance the latest and greatest, but clubs cannot do this. As the Chair of the Growth and Retention Committee I intend to spend some face time to see what can be done for clubs who have at least 50% equity in their glider. Such loans shouldn't require a Guarantor where the glider is new or newly used and worth more than $50k. One option is to have pledges in the event of a default (which isn't quite the same thing as being a Guarantor but ought to still help reduce the risk for a bank). The next question is, who wants to get into the glider Repo business? Hopefully this won't be needed though.

Your feedback is appreciated.

Chris Schrader, Chair of SSA's Growth & Retention Committee

Chris,

I respect your engagement in this forum to help our failing sport. You have a tough job ahead of you.

Perhaps if there was enough orders for the remaking of the ASW-19, say 50 orders at a reasonable price, the Alexander Schliecher factory could start up production again.

Just like Chevrolet can make a high end fully loaded Corvette with the latest technology for over $100,000 and a stripped down camaro for $25,000 (both brand new 2017 models). Surely, a sailplane factory could do the same thing, offer a high end and a low end glider.

I have to believe that if there were enough orders for this sailplane to be brought back into production at a reasonable price there would be a tremendous amount of orders and it would jumpstart the club class like you've never seen before.

I will say it again, if the PW-5 was produced for the price it was, so can it happen again.

Perhaps if there was enough orders for the remaking of the ASW-19, say 50 orders at a reasonable price, the Alexander Schliecher factory could start up production again.

Just like Chevrolet can make a high end fully loaded Corvette with the latest technology for over $100,000 and a stripped down camaro for $25,000 (both brand new 2017 models). Surely, a sailplane factory could do the same thing, offer a high end and a low end glider.

I have to believe that if there were enough orders for this sailplane to be brought back into production at a reasonable price there would be a tremendous amount of orders and it would jumpstart the club class like you've never seen before.

I will say it again, if the PW-5 was produced for the price it was, so can it happen again.

As the CEO of General Motors said a year or so ago in an interview, "I can bend metal that looks ugly or bend metal looks good. The cost of doing either is the same."
I can't believe that the actual cost of producing an ASW19 today in Germany is significantly less than the cost of making the ASW28. Both will be manufactured with the same processes, etc, but just a different shape. The bulk of the manufacturing cost is labor. Carbon fiber? That cost differencial is small in the overall picture. Plus you get the added benefit of improved cockpit safety in the newer design.
Are you expecting the new ASW19's to be made in China, Malaysia, or another low labor cost country? I'd enjoy listening to the conversations at Schleicher when that topic is discussed.
I think your idea has some huge practical road blocks directly in it's path..

http://www.proairsport.com/project-glow.php Predicted price $53K. That's with two motors. Twice the record breaking capacity. If you had new 25K ASW-19s on the market, all it would do is make old ASW-19s worth 12K. But I don't think it can be done with current construction techniques. Figure out how to build a plastic rotomolded glider(same as kayaks) and you'd be in the low cost glider market. That assumes there are low cost glider buyers. How much performance would pilots give up for a cheap new glider? And how much performance would they give up for a new glider with a motor at a 'low' price? Get permission to build new 1-26s that would fix everything... Rotomolded plastic 1-26s are the future. Order yours today. Available in traditional yellow and orange.
On Monday, March 20, 2017 at 10:08:34 AM UTC-4, wrote:
Chris,

I respect your engagement in this forum to help our failing sport. You have a tough job ahead of you.

Perhaps if there was enough orders for the remaking of the ASW-19, say 50 orders at a reasonable price, the Alexander Schliecher factory could start up production again.

Just like Chevrolet can make a high end fully loaded Corvette with the latest technology for over $100,000 and a stripped down camaro for $25,000 (both brand new 2017 models). Surely, a sailplane factory could do the same thing, offer a high end and a low end glider.

I have to believe that if there were enough orders for this sailplane to be brought back into production at a reasonable price there would be a tremendous amount of orders and it would jumpstart the club class like you've never seen before.

I will say it again, if the PW-5 was produced for the price it was, so can it happen again.

....not to mention that they can't keep up with demand for their $200k gliders, what possible incentive do they have to do this?