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$1 billion BMS Ooops...



 
 
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  #31  
Old February 27th 21, 11:07 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Eric Greenwell[_4_]
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Posts: 1,894
Default $1 billion BMS Ooops...

wrote on 2/27/2021 1:19 PM:
Eric,

I think that is probably a typo mistake, the voltage range and capacity is typical for 3000-3500 mAh li-ion cell.
It's a bit awkward to drill down to it, so here's a short cut. Go to this page:

https://jonkersailplanes.co.za/res-system/

Then scroll to the section with this:


Battery specification

Battery type EMECTRIC 96-4 400V
Battery configuration 96S4P LiFePo
Battery Voltage 270V-400V
Capacity per battery 4.7kWh
Battery Weight: 22kg (48.5 lbs)
Maximum number of batteries 2

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1
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  #32  
Old February 27th 21, 11:30 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
[email protected]
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Posts: 14
Default $1 billion BMS Ooops...

El sábado, 27 de febrero de 2021 a la(s) 20:07:36 UTC-3, Eric Greenwell escribió:
wrote on 2/27/2021 1:19 PM:
Eric,

I think that is probably a typo mistake, the voltage range and capacity is typical for 3000-3500 mAh li-ion cell.
It's a bit awkward to drill down to it, so here's a short cut. Go to this page:

https://jonkersailplanes.co.za/res-system/

Then scroll to the section with this:


Battery specification

Battery type EMECTRIC 96-4 400V
Battery configuration 96S4P LiFePo
Battery Voltage 270V-400V
Capacity per battery 4.7kWh
Battery Weight: 22kg (48.5 lbs)
Maximum number of batteries 2
--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1

O



Yes, I saw the same.
But when you do the maths the values correspond to li-ion chemistry.
  #33  
Old February 28th 21, 04:51 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Eric Greenwell[_4_]
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Posts: 1,894
Default $1 billion BMS Ooops...

wrote on 2/27/2021 3:30 PM:
El sábado, 27 de febrero de 2021 a la(s) 20:07:36 UTC-3, Eric Greenwell escribió:
wrote on 2/27/2021 1:19 PM:
Eric,

I think that is probably a typo mistake, the voltage range and capacity is typical for 3000-3500 mAh li-ion cell.
It's a bit awkward to drill down to it, so here's a short cut. Go to this page:

https://jonkersailplanes.co.za/res-system/

Then scroll to the section with this:


Battery specification

Battery type EMECTRIC 96-4 400V
Battery configuration 96S4P LiFePo
Battery Voltage 270V-400V
Capacity per battery 4.7kWh
Battery Weight: 22kg (48.5 lbs)
Maximum number of batteries 2
--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1

O



Yes, I saw the same.
But when you do the maths the values correspond to li-ion chemistry.

Ah, now I see what you mean, and since I can't find any mention of LifePo on the Emectric
website, I suspect you are right, and it is in error.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1

  #34  
Old February 28th 21, 11:09 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Scott Manley[_3_]
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Posts: 29
Default $1 billion BMS Ooops...

One of the Alisport Silent 2 gliders being offered on Wings & Wheels is mine. It was the perfect glider for me. I literally loved everything about it. Easy to rig, easy to fly, all the glide performance I needed, simple operation of the power system. It is for sale because I decided to stop flying real aircraft, not because I am in any way disappointed with the aircraft. It is low time because I didn't fly it as much as I thought I would.
  #35  
Old March 2nd 21, 09:10 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
ProfJ
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Posts: 48
Default $1 billion BMS Ooops...

On Wednesday, 24 February 2021 at 14:42:01 UTC-7, wrote:
https://insideevs.com/news/490300/hy...ll-82000-bevs/
Discus amongst yourselves...

Some comments:

- High current draw for VTO launches (Lilium) - IIRC they are planning to use supercapacitors to provide the current boost so that the batteries don't have to. A supercapacitor/LiPo combination makes a lot of sense for that problem.

- Electric vs. gas: a very experienced motorglider ferry pilot, who I am sure does not want to be named, once told me when discussing Stemmes: "I've had every known Stemme issue except the in-flight fire, I'm not looking forward to that one..." I side with Eric here - we have normalized all the hassle that goes with gas self-launchers. When we get mature technology electric self-launchers, they'll dominate. Current complaints about electric sound exactly like the complaints about electric cars, before Tesla got it right.
  #36  
Old March 3rd 21, 02:28 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Andrzej Kobus
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Posts: 576
Default $1 billion BMS Ooops...

On Tuesday, March 2, 2021 at 4:10:48 PM UTC-5, ProfJ wrote:
On Wednesday, 24 February 2021 at 14:42:01 UTC-7, wrote:
https://insideevs.com/news/490300/hy...ll-82000-bevs/
Discus amongst yourselves...

Some comments:

- High current draw for VTO launches (Lilium) - IIRC they are planning to use supercapacitors to provide the current boost so that the batteries don't have to. A supercapacitor/LiPo combination makes a lot of sense for that problem.

- Electric vs. gas: a very experienced motorglider ferry pilot, who I am sure does not want to be named, once told me when discussing Stemmes: "I've had every known Stemme issue except the in-flight fire, I'm not looking forward to that one..." I side with Eric here - we have normalized all the hassle that goes with gas self-launchers. When we get mature technology electric self-launchers, they'll dominate. Current complaints about electric sound exactly like the complaints about electric cars, before Tesla got it right.


So how big is the electric glider market vs. electric car market? Things get done with proper research and funding. I don't see that happen for the glider market. I suggest you review David's presentation. He discussed this point.
  #37  
Old March 3rd 21, 03:25 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
2G
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Posts: 1,386
Default $1 billion BMS Ooops...

On Tuesday, March 2, 2021 at 6:28:27 PM UTC-8, Andrzej Kobus wrote:
On Tuesday, March 2, 2021 at 4:10:48 PM UTC-5, ProfJ wrote:
On Wednesday, 24 February 2021 at 14:42:01 UTC-7, wrote:
https://insideevs.com/news/490300/hy...ll-82000-bevs/
Discus amongst yourselves...

Some comments:

- High current draw for VTO launches (Lilium) - IIRC they are planning to use supercapacitors to provide the current boost so that the batteries don't have to. A supercapacitor/LiPo combination makes a lot of sense for that problem.

- Electric vs. gas: a very experienced motorglider ferry pilot, who I am sure does not want to be named, once told me when discussing Stemmes: "I've had every known Stemme issue except the in-flight fire, I'm not looking forward to that one..." I side with Eric here - we have normalized all the hassle that goes with gas self-launchers. When we get mature technology electric self-launchers, they'll dominate. Current complaints about electric sound exactly like the complaints about electric cars, before Tesla got it right.

So how big is the electric glider market vs. electric car market? Things get done with proper research and funding. I don't see that happen for the glider market. I suggest you review David's presentation. He discussed this point.


ICO glider engines have been developed over the last 70 years or so. And, then, many of them have come from the 2-cycle engine applications such as snowmobiles and ultralights. The electric glider market is much more immature..

Tom
  #38  
Old March 3rd 21, 04:27 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Eric Greenwell[_4_]
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Posts: 1,894
Default $1 billion BMS Ooops...

2G wrote on 3/2/2021 7:25 PM:
On Tuesday, March 2, 2021 at 6:28:27 PM UTC-8, Andrzej Kobus wrote:
On Tuesday, March 2, 2021 at 4:10:48 PM UTC-5, ProfJ wrote:
On Wednesday, 24 February 2021 at 14:42:01 UTC-7, wrote:
https://insideevs.com/news/490300/hy...ll-82000-bevs/
Discus amongst yourselves...
Some comments:

- High current draw for VTO launches (Lilium) - IIRC they are planning to use supercapacitors to provide the current boost so that the batteries don't have to. A supercapacitor/LiPo combination makes a lot of sense for that problem.

- Electric vs. gas: a very experienced motorglider ferry pilot, who I am sure does not want to be named, once told me when discussing Stemmes: "I've had every known Stemme issue except the in-flight fire, I'm not looking forward to that one..." I side with Eric here - we have normalized all the hassle that goes with gas self-launchers. When we get mature technology electric self-launchers, they'll dominate. Current complaints about electric sound exactly like the complaints about electric cars, before Tesla got it right.

So how big is the electric glider market vs. electric car market? Things get done with proper research and funding. I don't see that happen for the glider market. I suggest you review David's presentation. He discussed this point.


ICO glider engines have been developed over the last 70 years or so. And, then, many of them have come from the 2-cycle engine applications such as snowmobiles and ultralights. The electric glider market is much more immature..


That immaturity means they have a lot of promise, compared to the ICE gliders. We know in 5
years the performance of the electrics will increase significantly; the fossil fueled ones -
not nearly so much. Even at the current immature stage, they are so desirable, all the major
manufacturers, and some of the second tier, offer at least two electric models in mast or FES
varieties.

I suggest that in maybe 5, but certainly in 10 years, the discussions will no longer be about
gas vs electric, but which electric to buy.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
lyhttps://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1
  #39  
Old March 4th 21, 02:11 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
2G
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,386
Default $1 billion BMS Ooops...

On Tuesday, March 2, 2021 at 8:27:55 PM UTC-8, Eric Greenwell wrote:
2G wrote on 3/2/2021 7:25 PM:
On Tuesday, March 2, 2021 at 6:28:27 PM UTC-8, Andrzej Kobus wrote:
On Tuesday, March 2, 2021 at 4:10:48 PM UTC-5, ProfJ wrote:
On Wednesday, 24 February 2021 at 14:42:01 UTC-7, wrote:
https://insideevs.com/news/490300/hy...ll-82000-bevs/
Discus amongst yourselves...
Some comments:

- High current draw for VTO launches (Lilium) - IIRC they are planning to use supercapacitors to provide the current boost so that the batteries don't have to. A supercapacitor/LiPo combination makes a lot of sense for that problem.

- Electric vs. gas: a very experienced motorglider ferry pilot, who I am sure does not want to be named, once told me when discussing Stemmes: "I've had every known Stemme issue except the in-flight fire, I'm not looking forward to that one..." I side with Eric here - we have normalized all the hassle that goes with gas self-launchers. When we get mature technology electric self-launchers, they'll dominate. Current complaints about electric sound exactly like the complaints about electric cars, before Tesla got it right.
So how big is the electric glider market vs. electric car market? Things get done with proper research and funding. I don't see that happen for the glider market. I suggest you review David's presentation. He discussed this point.


ICO glider engines have been developed over the last 70 years or so. And, then, many of them have come from the 2-cycle engine applications such as snowmobiles and ultralights. The electric glider market is much more immature..


That immaturity means they have a lot of promise, compared to the ICE gliders. We know in 5
years the performance of the electrics will increase significantly; the fossil fueled ones -
not nearly so much. Even at the current immature stage, they are so desirable, all the major
manufacturers, and some of the second tier, offer at least two electric models in mast or FES
varieties.

I suggest that in maybe 5, but certainly in 10 years, the discussions will no longer be about
gas vs electric, but which electric to buy.
--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
lyhttps://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1


Wishful thinking duly noted. The development, deployment and long-term flight experience of aircraft takes time. Ten years is a good estimate for a single model such as the Antares. Its first flight was in 2003, so development must have started about 20 years ago. I think that in 5 to 10 years we will be thinking "Boy, those electric gliders looked promising at the time, but if we knew then what we know now I would never have bought one." Successful product development just can't be rushed.
  #40  
Old March 4th 21, 04:53 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
John Cochrane[_3_]
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Posts: 350
Default $1 billion BMS Ooops...

For the moment the big limitation seems to me to be weight. I looked hard at the AS33 electric. You get one launch to 2000' and then 9000' of climb to get home. For that, it's really hard to get off the ground at less than 10 lbs/ft2 empty, and 10.5 in 15 m mode. Gas has a wonderful energy density. I'm surprised some sort of hybrid doesn't make sense, gas to recharge a smaller battery, then eliminate the drive elements with an electric motor. But I presume they worked the numbers on this.

John Cochrane BB
 




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