Cessna 152 spin integrity

Things CAN'T be THIS bad....or ARE they!!!!!!

--
Dudley Henriques- Hide quoted text -

I know the answer to those questions and I'm a mere PPL. I didn't do
any formal ground school.

I learned the answer to the g question by having two spins
demonstrated to me.

The danger part, well, doesn't that ultimately have to do with
altitude, spin awareness, and ability to recover? Danger is relative
to the answers to those "questions".

So, I don't think things are THAT bad.

However I do think a PPL should get enough training from a CFI well
trained in spins to actually recover from a spin before getting the
PPL. Doesn't have to be on the PTS. But ought to be an endorsement.
Every bit as important in my view as the x country.

Dudley Henriques wrote:
Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
Dudley Henriques wrote in
:

Ricky wrote:
I was watching the 50-something spins done in a 152 on youtube and it
got me thinking;

I seem to remember being taught during commercial training that spins
do not greatly increase G forces on the airplane, is this true?

I also remember being warned "no spin is exactly the same or
predictable, so DON'T do them solo! Was this just a warning from my
school so we wouldn't screw up their gyros or are spins indeed
possibly very dangerous inherently for some reason?

I would like to try some solo next time I'm up just for fun but may
take a willing CFI along (or fellow pilot) just in case.

Would 50-something spins compromise a Cessna 150 or 152's structure?

Another thing I'd be concerned about was getting overly dizzy beyond
a
handful of spins.

Ricky
Hi Rick;

I'm not trying to be confrontational here but I notice you are a
commercial pilot. I can't for the life of me rectify why you don't
know
the answers to the questions you are asking here. I find it
incredulous
that a commercial pilot could go through the process, then pass the
flight test and not know these answers.



Modern life!
To be fair, I wouldn't have known much about structures and G limits
when I got my commercial either. There's certainly nothing presented
in the syllabus that could be described as anything more than
rudimentary. The current trend is to tell pilots less and less about
how the airplanes they fly are put together. The last type rating I
did was just appalling.

Bertie

Again, I don't mean to be picking on the OP who innocently asked what
I'm sure he believes to be pertinent questions. My puzzlement is more
directed at the system that trained this pilot.

A commercial pilot who has to ask if a spin greatly increases the g
forces on an airplane?
A commercial pilot who has to ask if spins are inherently dangerous?

Things CAN'T be THIS bad....or ARE they!!!!!!

I can't speak for your field, Dudley, but in mine
I have to deal with electrical engineers that have
never touched a soldering iron and CS grads that
have never coded in assembly language.

Dudley Henriques wrote in
:

Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
Dudley Henriques wrote in
:

Ricky wrote:
I was watching the 50-something spins done in a 152 on youtube and
it got me thinking;

I seem to remember being taught during commercial training that
spins do not greatly increase G forces on the airplane, is this
true?

I also remember being warned "no spin is exactly the same or
predictable, so DON'T do them solo! Was this just a warning from my
school so we wouldn't screw up their gyros or are spins indeed
possibly very dangerous inherently for some reason?

I would like to try some solo next time I'm up just for fun but may
take a willing CFI along (or fellow pilot) just in case.

Would 50-something spins compromise a Cessna 150 or 152's
structure?

Another thing I'd be concerned about was getting overly dizzy
beyond
a
handful of spins.

Ricky
Hi Rick;

I'm not trying to be confrontational here but I notice you are a
commercial pilot. I can't for the life of me rectify why you don't
know
the answers to the questions you are asking here. I find it
incredulous
that a commercial pilot could go through the process, then pass the
flight test and not know these answers.



Modern life!

To be fair, I wouldn't have known much about structures and G limits
when I got my commercial either. There's certainly nothing presented
in the syllabus that could be described as anything more than
rudimentary. The current trend is to tell pilots less and less about
how the airplanes they fly are put together. The last type rating I
did was just appalling.


Bertie

Again, I don't mean to be picking on the OP who innocently asked what
I'm sure he believes to be pertinent questions. My puzzlement is more
directed at the system that trained this pilot.

Likewise.


A commercial pilot who has to ask if a spin greatly increases the g
forces on an airplane?


Well, to be fair, it varies a bit

A commercial pilot who has to ask if spins are inherently dangerous?

Things CAN'T be THIS bad....or ARE they!!!!!!


Have been in some quarters for some time.. Most of the kids coming up as
FOs at my place have either never spun or have only seen them
demonstrated. Because of the other thread on it, I was talking with my
FO abou tit over dinner, and he told me that he had only had been shown
them oncece and that they had done three turns in a 172, but he thought
that the airplane must have been spiraling for the last few turns. I
told him that 172s are hard to get to go around more than about a half a
turn. He said that he queried it at the time, but was assured by the
instructor (at a big school that specialises in training airline piots)
that they were definitely spins..


Bertie

Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
Dudley Henriques wrote in
:

Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
Dudley Henriques wrote in
:

Ricky wrote:
I was watching the 50-something spins done in a 152 on youtube and
it got me thinking;

I seem to remember being taught during commercial training that
spins do not greatly increase G forces on the airplane, is this
true?

I also remember being warned "no spin is exactly the same or
predictable, so DON'T do them solo! Was this just a warning from my
school so we wouldn't screw up their gyros or are spins indeed
possibly very dangerous inherently for some reason?

I would like to try some solo next time I'm up just for fun but may
take a willing CFI along (or fellow pilot) just in case.

Would 50-something spins compromise a Cessna 150 or 152's
structure?

Another thing I'd be concerned about was getting overly dizzy
beyond
a
handful of spins.

Ricky
Hi Rick;

I'm not trying to be confrontational here but I notice you are a
commercial pilot. I can't for the life of me rectify why you don't
know
the answers to the questions you are asking here. I find it
incredulous
that a commercial pilot could go through the process, then pass the
flight test and not know these answers.


Modern life!

To be fair, I wouldn't have known much about structures and G limits
when I got my commercial either. There's certainly nothing presented
in the syllabus that could be described as anything more than
rudimentary. The current trend is to tell pilots less and less about
how the airplanes they fly are put together. The last type rating I
did was just appalling.


Bertie
Again, I don't mean to be picking on the OP who innocently asked what
I'm sure he believes to be pertinent questions. My puzzlement is more
directed at the system that trained this pilot.

Likewise.

A commercial pilot who has to ask if a spin greatly increases the g
forces on an airplane?


Well, to be fair, it varies a bit

A commercial pilot who has to ask if spins are inherently dangerous?

Things CAN'T be THIS bad....or ARE they!!!!!!


Have been in some quarters for some time.. Most of the kids coming up as
FOs at my place have either never spun or have only seen them
demonstrated. Because of the other thread on it, I was talking with my
FO abou tit over dinner, and he told me that he had only had been shown
them oncece and that they had done three turns in a 172, but he thought
that the airplane must have been spiraling for the last few turns. I
told him that 172s are hard to get to go around more than about a half a
turn. He said that he queried it at the time, but was assured by the
instructor (at a big school that specialises in training airline piots)
that they were definitely spins..


Bertie

I think my main concern isn't that formal instruction on spins is
missing, but rather that whoever trained this pilot apparently never
even engaged his student in a basic conversation more or less an
instructional period concerning the most general nature of the spin
environment.
It's inconceivable to me that I would send ANY applicant up for a
commercial flight test that I hadn't at least satisfied myself on the
fact that the pilot I was recommending had at least some basic
understanding about spins even though I knew the applicant wouldn't be
required to do spins.
I must be getting old or something. :-)))

--
Dudley Henriques

"Bertie the Bunyip" wrote in message
.. .
"JGalban via AviationKB.com" u32749@uwe wrote in
news:7ec1fcb50fea9@uwe:

Ricky wrote:


I also remember being warned "no spin is exactly the same or
predictable, so DON'T do them solo! Was this just a warning from my
school so we wouldn't screw up their gyros or are spins indeed
possibly very dangerous inherently for some reason?


Sounds like the school didn't have a whole lot of confidence in the
spin
training they provided. Assuming you're within the proper weight and
CG envelope, spins should be quite predictable. Particularly in
something like a 152.

A local FBO will only allow spins in their Great Lakes aerobatic
trainers
(they also have Supercubs and Huskies) because the have cageable
gyros. I've often wondered if this isn't an Old Wives Tale. I've
been spinning my Cherokee on a fairly regular basis since 1994. The
gyros often tumble during spins, but that's never caused a maintenance
problem. I've still got the same gyros in the panel that were there
when I bought the plane 14 yrs. ago. They've never been removed for OH
and they're still working fine.


Holy Crap! That's amazing!

It definitely wrecks gyros. The one place I worked that had no non gyro
airplanes had one airplane ( cherokee) for spins and it's gyros barely
showed any interest at all.
I suppose it depends on the quality, but it is defnitely not an old
wives tale.


Bertie

My recollection is that a "normal" spin entry would tumble the gyros in a
150M, but not in a 152. Apparently, if my recollection of the gimbal limits
is correct, the 150 dipped through 80 degrees nose down on the entry and the
152 did not.

There seems to be a wide variation in the spin entry for various aircraft,
even when the entry is not from an accelerated stall, and there are also a
variety of non-tumbling gyros (in addition to gageable viarieties) in the GA
fleet. All of the cageable gyros that I have personally seen were the old
fashioned varieties (gull-wing horizons and those old DGs that looked like
the whiskey compass in the windshield) which would tumble on any excursion
through 60 degrees of pitch or roll if not gaged.

I have never personally seen any of the newer type gyros which were
cageable, although I presume that they exist. In any case, the newer types
(which can now be close to 40 years old) are certainly more rugged than
their predecessors.

Please treat this as a request for information and comment.

Peter

wrote:
Things CAN'T be THIS bad....or ARE they!!!!!!

--
Dudley Henriques- Hide quoted text -

I know the answer to those questions and I'm a mere PPL. I didn't do
any formal ground school.

I learned the answer to the g question by having two spins
demonstrated to me.

The danger part, well, doesn't that ultimately have to do with
altitude, spin awareness, and ability to recover? Danger is relative
to the answers to those "questions".

So, I don't think things are THAT bad.

However I do think a PPL should get enough training from a CFI well
trained in spins to actually recover from a spin before getting the
PPL. Doesn't have to be on the PTS. But ought to be an endorsement.
Every bit as important in my view as the x country.

You did the right thing familiarizing yourself with the spin
environment. I highly recommend that all pilots do that.
What we have been discussing here is nothing more than basic reading!!
I can't imagine a pilot carrying an active commercial plus an instrument
rating who hasn't at least READ something about spins.

--
Dudley Henriques

Things CAN'T be THIS bad....or ARE they!!!!!!

--
Dudley Henriques

They already were in Southeastern Florida c1980, and I doubt that they have
improved.

Peter

Jim Stewart wrote:
Dudley Henriques wrote:
Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
Dudley Henriques wrote in
:

Ricky wrote:
I was watching the 50-something spins done in a 152 on youtube and it
got me thinking;

I seem to remember being taught during commercial training that spins
do not greatly increase G forces on the airplane, is this true?

I also remember being warned "no spin is exactly the same or
predictable, so DON'T do them solo! Was this just a warning from my
school so we wouldn't screw up their gyros or are spins indeed
possibly very dangerous inherently for some reason?

I would like to try some solo next time I'm up just for fun but may
take a willing CFI along (or fellow pilot) just in case.

Would 50-something spins compromise a Cessna 150 or 152's structure?

Another thing I'd be concerned about was getting overly dizzy beyond
a
handful of spins.

Ricky
Hi Rick;

I'm not trying to be confrontational here but I notice you are a
commercial pilot. I can't for the life of me rectify why you don't
know
the answers to the questions you are asking here. I find it
incredulous
that a commercial pilot could go through the process, then pass the
flight test and not know these answers.



Modern life!
To be fair, I wouldn't have known much about structures and G limits
when I got my commercial either. There's certainly nothing presented
in the syllabus that could be described as anything more than
rudimentary. The current trend is to tell pilots less and less about
how the airplanes they fly are put together. The last type rating I
did was just appalling.

Bertie

Again, I don't mean to be picking on the OP who innocently asked what
I'm sure he believes to be pertinent questions. My puzzlement is more
directed at the system that trained this pilot.

A commercial pilot who has to ask if a spin greatly increases the g
forces on an airplane?
A commercial pilot who has to ask if spins are inherently dangerous?

Things CAN'T be THIS bad....or ARE they!!!!!!

I can't speak for your field, Dudley, but in mine
I have to deal with electrical engineers that have
never touched a soldering iron and CS grads that
have never coded in assembly language.

I know. We have a son who was a high level head hunter for a major
company dealing with the hiring of computer science grads on the Masters
level who needed remedial training in basic algebra to go on the job.

--
Dudley Henriques

Peter Dohm wrote:
Things CAN'T be THIS bad....or ARE they!!!!!!

--
Dudley Henriques

They already were in Southeastern Florida c1980, and I doubt that they have
improved.

Peter



Stand um up and move um out. Kind of gives you that "safe" feeling :-)))

--
Dudley Henriques

Dudley Henriques wrote in
:

Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
Dudley Henriques wrote in
:

Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
Dudley Henriques wrote in
:

Ricky wrote:
I was watching the 50-something spins done in a 152 on youtube
and it got me thinking;

I seem to remember being taught during commercial training that
spins do not greatly increase G forces on the airplane, is this
true?

I also remember being warned "no spin is exactly the same or
predictable, so DON'T do them solo! Was this just a warning from
my school so we wouldn't screw up their gyros or are spins indeed
possibly very dangerous inherently for some reason?

I would like to try some solo next time I'm up just for fun but
may take a willing CFI along (or fellow pilot) just in case.

Would 50-something spins compromise a Cessna 150 or 152's
structure?

Another thing I'd be concerned about was getting overly dizzy
beyond
a
handful of spins.

Ricky
Hi Rick;

I'm not trying to be confrontational here but I notice you are a
commercial pilot. I can't for the life of me rectify why you don't
know
the answers to the questions you are asking here. I find it
incredulous
that a commercial pilot could go through the process, then pass
the flight test and not know these answers.


Modern life!

To be fair, I wouldn't have known much about structures and G
limits when I got my commercial either. There's certainly nothing
presented in the syllabus that could be described as anything more
than rudimentary. The current trend is to tell pilots less and less
about how the airplanes they fly are put together. The last type
rating I did was just appalling.


Bertie
Again, I don't mean to be picking on the OP who innocently asked
what I'm sure he believes to be pertinent questions. My puzzlement
is more directed at the system that trained this pilot.

Likewise.

A commercial pilot who has to ask if a spin greatly increases the g
forces on an airplane?


Well, to be fair, it varies a bit

A commercial pilot who has to ask if spins are inherently dangerous?

Things CAN'T be THIS bad....or ARE they!!!!!!


Have been in some quarters for some time.. Most of the kids coming up
as FOs at my place have either never spun or have only seen them
demonstrated. Because of the other thread on it, I was talking with
my FO abou tit over dinner, and he told me that he had only had been
shown them oncece and that they had done three turns in a 172, but he
thought that the airplane must have been spiraling for the last few
turns. I told him that 172s are hard to get to go around more than
about a half a turn. He said that he queried it at the time, but was
assured by the instructor (at a big school that specialises in
training airline piots) that they were definitely spins..


Bertie

I think my main concern isn't that formal instruction on spins is
missing, but rather that whoever trained this pilot apparently never
even engaged his student in a basic conversation more or less an
instructional period concerning the most general nature of the spin
environment.
It's inconceivable to me that I would send ANY applicant up for a
commercial flight test that I hadn't at least satisfied myself on the
fact that the pilot I was recommending had at least some basic
understanding about spins even though I knew the applicant wouldn't be
required to do spins.
I must be getting old or something. :-)))

Well, like I said, this stuff has been happening since I've been flying.
I suppose the only consolation is that they're harder to spin thse days.
One of the guys in my club didn't kow how to slip, never mind spin..


Bertie