Slavery In Aviation

|
| Face it, you shot your "mouth" off and now are trying to rationalize your
| mistake. It makes you come off as incredibly juvenile.

No matter how you slice it, you are attempting to rationalize taking
someone's labor without paying for it.

If you were my little boy, I would wash your mouth out with soap.

CJ, I think you're making a hard-edged issue where none exists. If you
really feel this strongly about the abuse of labor, and of flight
instructors particularly, I suggest you embark on the organization of all
CFIs into a good, strong union. Comfortable wages, comprehensive benefits,
improved working conditions; the whole package. We'll check back in, say,
five or ten years and see just how much you've improved their lot.

JG

"John Gaquin" wrote in message
...
|
| CJ, I think you're making a hard-edged issue where none exists. If you
| really feel this strongly about the abuse of labor, and of flight
| instructors particularly, I suggest you embark on the organization of all
| CFIs into a good, strong union.

I am too old and tired for that, and I would not know the first thing of how
to go about it. It would be well outside my area of competence. I would like
to see the current professional organizations, such as NAFI, become stronger
advocacy groups, but that is probably a prejudice of my background as a CPA.
Unions seem to me to be far too vulnerable to corruption. The instructors at
Embry did unionize, but I don't know how that affected them.

I strongly believe that flight instructors are their own worst enemies. Most
flight instructors have college educations, since the airlines want their
pilots to be college graduates. Then they spend two or more years and tens
of thousands of dollars getting their ratings, just so they can get a job
that pays less than a burger flipper. No wonder people are not beating down
our doors asking for training as flight instructors! If the job paid
commensurate with the training and experience that it requires, with decent
working conditions and benefits I think we would have more business than we
can handle.

Until then, I am afraid that flight instructors will be either be people who
are retired and who can afford it, like me, or those who simply live lives
of quiet desperation.

"John Gaquin" wrote in message
...
| Quite a rant, CJ. Get a grip.
|
| "C J Campbell" wrote in message
|
| ....I think it is theft and, at bottom, an offense as serious
| as murder.
|
| One of the more patently ridiculous statements I've seen in a newsgroup.
|

It is a personal opinion. I allow others to be free to differ. I am not
alone in holding this view. Writers from Ayn Rand to Robert Ringer have
offered similar views at one time or another.

In a sense, theft is murder, only instead of destroying an entire life, you
only destroy part of it. But even if you take only a few hours or even a few
seconds wrongfully, you have to do so knowing that you are taking more than
the entire lifespan of many people.

The same goes for destroying reputation, stealing a loved one, etc. In a
sense, the ten commandments are really nothing more than injunctions against
the various methods of killing people (or God).

You may find my views extreme or even ridiculous, but I think it is even
more ridiculous to pretend that wealth and power, such as that pertaining to
an employer or the government, give you the right to steal. Yet that is the
basis of the argument for most of those disagreeing with me. I am not
surprised that my views offend such people. Indeed, I would be disappointed
if they did not. I would not be happy being popular with those who are
unable to rule their tongues or their passions, or who cannot control their
lust for things that are not theirs to take.

"C J Campbell" wrote in message
...

In a sense, theft is murder, only instead of destroying an entire life,
you
only destroy part of it. But even if you take only a few hours or even a
few
seconds wrongfully, you have to do so knowing that you are taking more
than
the entire lifespan of many people.



Or to paraphrase Frank Herbert, "Between depriving a
man of his life and depriving a man of an hour of his life,
there exists only a matter of degree".

There's a lot of good philosophy in "Dune", even if it
comes from the mouths of mutated humans. But what
has all this to do with flying?

--
Dr. Tony Cox
Citrus Controls Inc.
e-mail:
http://CitrusControls.com/

"Tony Cox" wrote in message
k.net...
|
|
|
| Or to paraphrase Frank Herbert, "Between depriving a
| man of his life and depriving a man of an hour of his life,
| there exists only a matter of degree".
|
| There's a lot of good philosophy in "Dune", even if it
| comes from the mouths of mutated humans. But what
| has all this to do with flying?
|

It has to do with the fact that some people think that flight instructors
should not be paid for non-flying duties they are required to perform by
their employers.

It has been a long time since I read "Dune." I don't recall that particular
quote at all, but I like it.

In article , C J Campbell wrote:
Until then, I am afraid that flight instructors will be either be people who
are retired and who can afford it, like me, or those who simply live lives
of quiet desperation.

Unfortunately, I think you're right.

I have considered flight instructing, but because of issues like having
to work for free, and the poor pay, I'd never do it at a flight
school. I'd only do it freelance.

On the 'working for free' issue, I don't see it in quite as extreme
light as you. I did do unpaid overtime for $EMPLOYER[$current-2] without
complaint. Why? Well, the relationship I had with my employer was good
- we respected each other. There was a bit of give and take - they
didn't mind me doing reasonable web surfing and Usenet posting during
work hours, so I didn't mind doing the odd bit of unpaid overtime. They
gave me full pay when my mother died in a foreign country, and I needed
a whole month off work. I worked some weekends when we had a crunch. It
was a mutual thing - they cut me slack, I cut them slack. They also paid
me a damned good salary.

However, at flight schools, I don't see this. Many of the flight schools
I've seen, employee turnover is high and conditions are bad - the pay is
bad, the instructors are expected to work for free: but the employer
doesn't do squat to make up for it on the other end of the deal. They
are acting immorally, in my opionion, and I wouldn't work for an outfit
like that.

It's got to be a two way street with mutual respect to work. If I were
at a flight school in which that mutual respect was present - I dare say
I would do things for my employer for free to help them out. A workplace
where this mutual respect exists is a joy to work at, and I have no
problem going the extra mile for an employer who goes the extra mile for
the employee. Funny how there's a correlation between businesses that do
well having an employee relationship which is based on mutual respect.

If an employer expects it to be a one way street and demands my respect
without giving me respect, well they can just go fsck off and die.

--
Dylan Smith, Castletown, Isle of Man
Flying: http://www.dylansmith.net
Frontier Elite Universe: http://www.alioth.net
"Maintain thine airspeed, lest the ground come up and smite thee"

"Bob",

Call the Wage and Hour Division of the Department of Labor (it's in
the phone book under U.S. government), outline the situation. If it
sounds as if what the company is doing is in violation of the law, the
department will investigate, can make things more than a little
miserable for the employer and will keep your identity confidential.

You did not say what the situation was, however, companies demanding
that workers work without compensation seems to be on the rise
recently. In general, it is illegal, however, the companies seem to
feel that the employees are too intimidated to object. Often the
companies are correct.

All the best,
Rick

Bob Dole wrote in message news:y4Erb.158869$e01.564060@attbi_s02...
If the place where I work is telling me to work hour's for free, what
should I do ?

I am worried that working for free is illegal, immoral, unethical, and
unprofessional, and I am also worried that it exposes me to the possibility
of an IRS audit as I could be accused of getting paid "under the table"
(tax evasion etc.).

I appreciate any replie's.

"C J Campbell" wrote in message ...

No matter how you slice it, you are attempting to rationalize taking
someone's labor without paying for it.

Maybe.

Frankly we can't tell. This thread started with what was probably a
troll, inappropriately analogizing flight instruction and slavery.
I feel certain Sudanese and Cote d'Ivoire who actually have been
slaves would be happy to explain the difference and the ridiculous
nature of the analogy.

Your posts are rife with equally egregious exaggerations analogizing
unpaid work with murder, theft, and force. Should you ever encounter
any of the three, the ridiculous nature of your analogies will also
become clear to you.

Most people I see responding on this thread are objecting to these
exaggerations. Flight instruction is never the only job available
in a community. A flight instructor who doesn't like his terms of
employment can probably keep himself and his family afloat with one of
a number of different jobs which pay better for fewer hours while he
looks for a better aviation position. He is not being forced or
coerced by any rational definition of force or coersion.

I, and others, might agree with you that it's unfair to "take someone's
labor without paying for it", but you'd need to define exactly what you
mean by that.

Be specific, CJ, as the original poster was not. Just what practices
are you objecting to as unfair or describing as unpaid labor?
(to Tom S.)
If you were my little boy, I would wash your mouth out with soap.

I sympathize with this sentiment, but it doesn't obviate the
absurdity of some of the stuff you've posted on this topic.

Cheers,
Sydney

"C J Campbell" wrote in message
...
|
| Face it, you shot your "mouth" off and now are trying to rationalize
your
| mistake. It makes you come off as incredibly juvenile.

No matter how you slice it, you are attempting to rationalize taking
someone's labor without paying for it.

Man, you really need to hone your reading/comprehension skills.

Just where did I JUSTIFY ANYTHING!

Again, you're naking childish excuses.

If you were my little boy, I would wash your mouth out with soap.

First, you'd need to grow up yourself.