Thermal right, land left

"John" wrote in message
om...
If we assume we all fly well (either direction), and we all understand
the importance of controlling airspeed during landing, why is the
number one pilot error that is causing injury the stall/spin while
turning to land?

John is this a troll, or, are you one of those control freaks who wants to
use safety as a means to tell people what direction to turn and how fast to
fly?

I make no assumption that all pilots fly well - too many years as a CFI-G
for that. At the moment a pilot enters a fatal stall/spin, they were
careless, inept, forgetful or just incredibly rusty. The pilot who doesn't
is not lucky, they are flying well and paying attention. Flying is
EXTREMELY unforgiving of any carelessness.

At the end of the day, good pilots fly and live and bad pilots crash. It's
just that simple. Aviation is Darwinian.


Get away from the idea that you can stall all you want safely at
height, while down low, you no longer have that luxury. Get away from
the idea we all are responsible for flying the plane at all times.
The basic fact is we are all trained and should be able to land
safely.....yet, repeatedly, the same errors are being made by stalling
during the landing pattern.

Why? It's the truth. You ARE responsible and WILL be held accountable - if
not by man, by Mother Nature. You'd better hope it's man, Mother Nature is a
bitch - she'll kill you without remorse if you violate Her rules.

All trained to land safely? Probably, but it doesn't matter. What matters
is how well you fly the NEXT pattern and landing. Again, it's not just how
well you were trained, it's how much of that training that you employ in
your NEXT flight.


Is it pilot distraction that creates a laspes in monitoring airspeed?
Or is it habit?

Pilots are (or should be) trained to deal with distraction. Bad habits?
Maybe, but that means that the pilot needs remedial instruction and that
should have been caught at the last flight review.

With any physical activity, people develop habits thru repetion. Turn
right 100 times slowly, then turn right fast...it will feel different.
Will you instinctively slow down the fast turn to match the previous
100 slow turns? I think that is very possible.

Here is a way to check your habits. Next booming day, try 10-20 turns
to right at say 40 knots, then speed up to 65 knots. Can you hold 65
knots in a right turn now? Likely, but I bet you glance at the
airspeed a little more than you did in the previous 10-20 turns.

It just seems logical to me if you spend several hours flying slow,
you will tend to continue flying slow unless you specifically make
yourself fly faster. Get distracted, and you will go right back to
flying slow. Talking habits, here.

Is this habit of flying slow contributing to the stall/spin problem
when landing?

None of the above. If a pilot is doing any of these things, it points
exclusively to poor flying abilities that the pilot should have noted
himself and taken pro-active steps to remedy or should have been noticed by
someone else who takes action.

Safety is the result of just one thing - flying ability - which, among other
things, includes good judgement and the ability to control the aircraft at
all times with the outcome of the flight never in doubt. Without flying
ability there is no hope for any safety at all. With it, there's no need
for artificial rules about turn direction and airspeeds.

Unlike any other segment of aviation, a very large part of gliding activity
takes place in single seat aircraft . This allows a pilots skill levels to
deteriorate and many bad habits to develop out of sight of his peers. We
must compensate either individually by taking responsibility for the
maintenance of our flying skills or collectively through peer review. To do
otherwise is to invite a continuing bad safety record and higher insurance
premiums. To tolerate poor flying ability in ourselves or others, or to
make rules that accommodate it, is to institutionalize the problem.

Spring is less than two weeks away and I expect to read of the usual wave of
accidents as rusty pilots come out of hibernation. Everyone, do yourself,
and the sport, a favor and schedule a flight with your favorite CFI-G.

As you all can tell, I see this issue in black and white - end of sermon.

Bill Daniels

bandit111964 (John) wrote:
[snip]
With any physical activity, people develop habits
thru repetion. Turn right 100 times slowly, then
turn right fast...it will feel different.

Yes, and a pilot can (or should) recognize that difference whether the
slow/fast turns are done in the same or in different directions.

Will you instinctively slow down the fast turn to
match the previous 100 slow turns?

Not if you are in the pattern, no. I don't buy that ideology.

It just seems logical to me if you spend several
hours flying slow, you will tend to continue flying
slow unless you specifically make yourself fly
faster. Get distracted, and you will go right
back to flying slow. Talking habits, here.

"Talking habits"? ... if you suspect this might be the case, your suggestion
would only compound the problem of "habits". Understanding that thermaling AND
landing *have to* be done proficiently in both directions (i.e., joining any
established gaggle or when wind changes direction at the runway while you're
in-flight), promoting the habit of ONLY thermaling in one direction and ONLY
landing in the other to avoid stall/spin accidents is fixing what you perceive
to be a problem with an even bigger one -- creating a pilot who only
consistently practices things ONE way. That makes as much sense as suggesting
that instead of learning, understanding and becoming as consistent as possible
setting it up so you're on the glideslope, you intentionally always come in too
high to avoid the tendency to want to pull the nose up on final -- unless I'm
terribly mistaken, both examples are compounding one problem by trying to fix
it with another.

--Shirley

John wrote:

Here is a way to check your habits. Next booming day, try 10-20 turns
to right at say 40 knots, then speed up to 65 knots. Can you hold 65
knots in a right turn now?

NO Problem. Not even when I had only a 100 hours.

Likely, but I bet you glance at the
airspeed a little more than you did in the previous 10-20 turns.

Not unless I am in the pattern: establish the turn, then maintain it by
attitude. I don't have to monitor the airspeed anymore in a fast turn
than I do in a slow turn; in fact, it would be better to the reverse,
since you are closer to a stall when going slow.


It just seems logical to me if you spend several hours flying slow,
you will tend to continue flying slow unless you specifically make
yourself fly faster.

Well, maybe, but that's why you go to the correct pattern speed and set
the trim (many pilots set it slightly forward of the pattern speed).
Then fly by attitude and monitor the airspeed. These are the habits that
you should be building and using.

Get distracted, and you will go right back to
flying slow. Talking habits, here.

One more thing: thermalling is repeated 360s; patterns are only 90
degree turns (mostly). If you find yourself changing speed significantly
during a 90 degree turn, you need much more instruction on flying by
attitude and monitoring the airspeed in the pattern. I'm not kidding. If
your "habit" is that strong, you need training, not landing in one
direction and thermalling in another.


Is this habit of flying slow contributing to the stall/spin problem
when landing?

It's hard for me to imagine how countless hours of well executed 360
turns at a slow speed contribute to botching a 90 degree turn near the
ground. I'm guessing you are not flying by attitude, or paying attention
to the other cues to airspeed.

John, what glider are you flying?

--
-----
change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

Eric Greenwell
Washington State
USA

(John) wrote in message . com...

Is it pilot distraction that creates a laspes in monitoring airspeed?
Or is it habit?

Probably both - but I think you are missing the point. There is
really only one good habit to have while flying - a good lookout.
Everything else should be based on the task at hand, and performing
the appropriate maneuver to accomplish that task. At a certain level,
it may seem like habit, but that is really skill (and muscle memory)
taking effect.

The unreliability of habit is the reason for having checklists, after
all!

Your observation about turn direction preference is not new, even if
your suggested solution is a bit novel. It's a well known competition
tactic that if you know a certain pilot has a preferred turn
direction, you can probably outclimb him by establishing your thermal
turn in the opposite direction. I find that I prefer to turn left
when racing, and make a conscious effort to thermal both ways (SeeYou
is great for this, as it shows your turn direction percentage when
looking at the flight stats afterwards). Oddly enough, when flying
commercial rides in the usual assortment of Schweizers, I seem to
prefer to turn right. I do notice that most students start off
turning right off tow (as they are taught), and continue turning
right, while race pilots prefer to turn left (as required by rules
near the airport and turnpoints). Makes for some interesting
thermalling...

As others have commented, it is essential to be able to both turn slow
and precisely in a thermal, and turn safely and precisely at low
altitude in the pattern. In either direction. Different tasks, both
important. Practice, practice, practice. I do find that I don't
watch the airspeed indicator very much while thermalling, flying more
by feel and nose position, but look at it A LOT in the pattern.

Kirk
66

John,

this is the value of the trim handle. By resetting it, if you become
momentarily distracted, you are less likely to let the nose float up.

As you may have no choice in the direction you thermal, you may not
have a choice in the direction of your pattern.

You should be able to transition from climb to cruise and maintain a
speed, regardless what that speed is and your altitude. This is basic
airmanship. If you find this difficult, get help.

Stall spin in the pattern is typically due to poor pattern planning,
often leading to skidded turns at low altitude. And while you must
stall to spin, you will not spin if the you maintain coordinated
controls. This is why your instructor repeatedly told you to check
airspeed and yaw string while flying in the pattern. Down low this is
of paramount importance. There is simply no room for error. Again,
basic airmanship.

You are rationalizing a crutch. Learn not to be distracted. Deal with
problems, but don't let problems create bigger ones by letting your
focus wander from the task at hand -- flying your aircraft.

In article ,
John wrote:
If we assume we all fly well (either direction), and we all understand
the importance of controlling airspeed during landing, why is the
number one pilot error that is causing injury the stall/spin while
turning to land?

A) Because stall/spins at altitude aren't as often fatal

B) Because a huge portion of the time flying, pulling back on
the stick gives an instantaneous zoom up. This is even true
of airline pilots. Because the aircraft is flown so often on the
front side of the curve, despite knowing and training that
pulling back on the stick doesn't always make the aircraft go
up, seeing it happen that way the last bijillion times
you did it is sometimes psychologically compelling.

I'd be willing to bet that the ratio of stall/spin fatalities to
other causes is very different depending on the recency and
number of stalls the pilot has performed. I'd bet CFIs
who regularly instruct these things have a much lower
ratio while acting as PIC in normal solo flight than other
pilots.

The airlines seem to know this and that's why they love
those simulators. On the bad side, some of the airlines
sim check pilots don't force the plane into a stall that the pilot must
recover from, and I suspect that some pilots who avoid stalls in
the sim may not see them for a long time, and may not
recover correctly when they unexpectedly occur.

I think some recency in stall practice is really important.
Of course I also stopped my prop and dove for air-restart
yesterday to stay current in that too...

Nothing like recent practice to remind one of the hazards...




--

------------+
Mark Boyd
Avenal, California, USA

At 20:54 12 March 2004, Adp wrote:
My response to this is, 'don't do that'. Do not be
distracted from your
primary goal of getting on the ground safely.
Kill the cow, screw the crops, go between the trees,
the hell with the
pattern ---- do not stall and you will walk away.

Allan


I agree, except for one thing; if you kill the cow,the
cow will also kill you. I hit a deer at night with
a Buick; no glider would have survived it.

Moral?

Don't land gliders in fields at night!

Ian

"Nyal Williams" wrote in message
...
At 20:54 12 March 2004, Adp wrote:
My response to this is, 'don't do that'. Do not be
distracted from your
primary goal of getting on the ground safely.
Kill the cow, screw the crops, go between the trees,
the hell with the
pattern ---- do not stall and you will walk away.

Allan


I agree, except for one thing; if you kill the cow,the
cow will also kill you. I hit a deer at night with
a Buick; no glider would have survived it.

At 23:00 12 March 2004, Andreas Maurer wrote:
On 12 Mar 2004 12:05:42 -0800,
(Mark James Boyd)
wrote:


Where's the stall warning horn? I'm still utterly
baffled why there
isn't a stall warning device on each wingtip? Is this
really that
much extra drag? Is it more drag than that caused
by having
to make a wing design that buffets before a full stall?

There are gliders that are equipped with stall audio
warnings. Most of
these stall warnings have been switched off permanently
because they
were yelling all the time while thermalling.

Bye
Andreas

In sailplanes the stall warning instrument is a little
bit of grey matter fitted just behind the pilots eyes
and between his ears

Byeeeeeeeee

Dave

At 13:24 16 March 2004, Tony Verhulst wrote:
'This is a good point. The Skylane that I own a small
piece of has a horn that sounds about 10 kts before
the actual stall - and as such, is pretty useless,
IMHO. This is pretty typical for most power planes
and during a normal landing you expect it to go off.'

Tony
I fly power too and I have to disagree with you. The
stall warning is of great input to me. I want it to
go off during landing but not until I am within a couple
of feet of the ground if it is beeping at me when I
am still high on final Its input may save my life!
The same would be true of my Ventus as well! I have
many more hours in my Ventus than all of my power time
so it is not as likely that I would have a problem
in keeping the speed up but when flying different gliders
or other power aircraft, I appreciate a stall warning.
It is easy to get distracted and slow down your scan
of all of the instruments as well as looking for traffic
and maybe the trim is not set just right and the aircraft
starts to slow down on final. This is when it works
for me IMHO!