FLARM.....for good, or evil??

I've had a Flarm fitted for 4 years and by far the majority of other
gliders do not have one fitted. However, slowly but surely people are
getting them fitted in the UK. As it can be an IGC recorder that adds to
it's usefulness. I decided to get one for flying in the Alps because
almost all gliders flying there are fitted with them.
As for a transponder and pcas being more use, well I think glider/glider
or glider/tug collisions are far more common than glider/powered ac, so
for me Flarm is more cost effective. Powerflarm sounds like the best of
both worlds.
As for flying in gaggles, it's safe as long as everyone is looking out
and not cutting each other up.


At 17:46 26 October 2010, kd6veb wrote:
Hi Gang
Surely flying in a thermal with a gaggle of other gliders is
suicidal period. And what use is a Flarm in those conditions? I have a
Phoenix on order and am anticipating putting a PowerFlarm in it. Why?
Because the PowerFlarm has a PCAS function in addition to the Flarm
function and the PowerFlarm costs only a little more than a Zaon PCAS.
I do think the mandatory use of Flarm is a good idea for comps
especially if one can inexpensively rent a Flarm. But outside of comps
with the flying I do having a transponder is by far the most important
piece of safety equipment I have on board. A PCAS is also worth
having. Having a Flarm? It is a useless device until the use of Flarm
by the gliding community reaches critical mass (usage). That is
unlikely to happen here in the US for several years at best. And then
what about GA? What good is Flarm for GA? They are never going to use
it in the US. The FAA has another system in store for GA and
commercial aircraft.
Dave

It is no great surprise that See and Avoid beats Flarm in busy thermal
gaggles - that is what the manufacturers themselves advise - however I
find that the general beeping really keeps my mind on lookout and I
never silence it. See page 12 on this PowerPoint presentation:

http://www.flarm.com/files/basic_presentation_en.ppt

As to Flarm induced complacency - this has been looked at in various
reports and there is no evidence to support that notion - quite the
reverse, Flarm seems to increase awareness of collision risk and
encourage lookout. Finding out how many gliders you wouldn't have
been aware of without Flarms is a big eye opener.

The question below about how 2 gliders can get very close without a
Flarm alert sounding is easily and logically explained; Flarm is not a
proximity alert, it is a potential collision course alert. If two
gliders are close to each other but not on a collision course there is
no alert but if one then turns towards the other an alert will sound.
How else would one want the device to be configured? Two Flarmed
gliders can cruise very close and parallel to each other (e.g. pair
flying) with no alerts but as soon as they turn only a few degrees
towards each other then the alarm sounds.

John Galloway



On 26 Oct, 18:47, "
wrote:
John,

I do not disagree with anything you say above. *I am glad you are
still alive. *I see the problem with big gaggles. *I think FLARM is a
useful tool in avoiding glider to glider collisions.

Well, I was thinking that maybe FLARM is creating false sense of
security? *Could contest pilots actually be tempted *to fly
dangerously, taking extra risks, assuming that if everybody has a
FLARM there is no problem??

How could two flarm equipped gliders possibly get within 10 feet of
each other? *I mean, at some earlier point in time they we
considerably further apart, so at what point does one or both pilots
take evasive action?

Or does FLARM somehow allow safe flight within 20 feet or 10 feet or
even closer?

Cookie

Mark Dickson wrote:
Of course I have, in comps on numerous occasions. I'm assuming you
haven't.

At 15:21 26 October 2010, John Smith wrote:
Mark Dickson wrote:
When in a large gaggle Flarm is next to useless, more of a
distraction;
that's why it has a 5 minute mute function. In the big gaggle ignore
Flarm and keep your eyes scanning outside.

Let me guess: You haven't ever flown with FLARM yet, have you?

I like those top-posts. They make followin a discussion so much more
interesting. Anyway:

Of course FLARM is useless in a gaggle. The very fact that you care to
mention this made me believe that you haven't flown with one. And of
course scanning outside ist the primary strategy for see and avoid, in a
gaggle or not, even with FLARM installed.

However, I don't understand why FLARM should be distracting in a gaggle.
In a gaggle, mine is quiet unless a new glider joins. Or have you set
yours to announce all traffic instead of only the conflicting? You know
that you can change this mode by the push of a button?

On 10/26/2010 10:46 AM, kd6veb wrote:
It is a useless device until the use of Flarm
by the gliding community reaches critical mass (usage). That is
unlikely to happen here in the US for several years at best.

I don't know the situation where you fly, or what you mean by "critical
mass", but it sounds like at least 25% of the most active pilots in our
area (Washington state) have ordered, or have stated their intent to
order, a PowerFlarm. Once they are in use next year, and the other
pilots hear reports about how well it works, I'm sure it the percentage
will be much higher by the end of 2011. In any case, I think even a 25%
installation rate puts it in the "useful" category for my purposes.

I expect our regional to have greater than 75% equipage, in part because
many contest pilots will own a unit, and because others will be able to
borrow units from pilots like myself, who won't be flying in the contest.

The US as a whole may not get nearly as high because there are areas
with a low glider density, but I'd expect any busy area, like Minden
(think of running the Whites), will quickly exceed the 25% point next year.

I agree a transponder is a very useful device in many areas, and I've
had one for 8 years.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "Transponders in Sailplanes - Feb/2010" also ADS-B, PCAS, Flarm http://tinyurl.com/yb3xywl
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation Mar/2004" Much of what you need to know tinyurl.com/yfs7tnz

You are obviously just a wind up merchant. As that can not be
done at the touch of a button, not with the red box flarm I use any
way. (Good U turn by the way).
In a gaggle, mine is quiet unless a new glider joins. Or have you
set
yours to announce all traffic instead of only the conflicting? You
know
that you can change this mode by the push of a button?

My mistake, I was thinking of stealth mode. I don't bother
changing modes as the alarm only sounds with collision risk, for
that matter I don't bother with muting either.

At 22:11 26 October 2010, Mark Dickson wrote:
You are obviously just a wind up merchant. As that can not be
done at the touch of a button, not with the red box flarm I use
any
way. (Good U turn by the way).
In a gaggle, mine is quiet unless a new glider joins. Or have you
set
yours to announce all traffic instead of only the conflicting? You
know
that you can change this mode by the push of a button?

On Oct 26, 3:11*pm, Mark Dickson wrote:
You are obviously just a wind up merchant. *As that can not be
done at the touch of a button, not with the red box flarm I use any
way. *(Good U turn by the way).

In a gaggle, mine is quiet unless a new glider joins. Or have you
set
yours to announce all traffic instead of only the conflicting? You
know
that you can change this mode by the push of a button?

I don't see how he is being a wind up merchant trying to ask a pretty
reasonable question. But AFAIK the Mode button on the external display
only switches between warning and nearest mode. And if the
distractions are sounds (not just blinking LEDs) then that's a threat
and so playing with the mode switch won't help as all threats cause
audibe alarms for both warning and nearest mode. But you can change
the Flarm into Competition mode in the ConfigurationAdvancedRadio
Settings section of the Flarm Tool PC software. If you are flying in
large gaggles and being bugged by excess alerts have you checked you
are running in Competition Mode or tired that and found it does not
help you?

I am happy to be corrected on any of this.

Darryl

On Oct 26, 3:11*pm, johngalloway wrote:
It is no great surprise that See and Avoid beats Flarm in busy thermal
gaggles - that is what the manufacturers themselves advise - however I
find that the general beeping really keeps my mind on lookout and I
never silence it. *See page 12 on this PowerPoint presentation:

http://www.flarm.com/files/basic_presentation_en.ppt

As to Flarm induced complacency - this has been looked at in various
reports and there is no evidence to support that notion - quite the
reverse, Flarm seems to increase awareness of collision risk and
encourage lookout. *Finding out how many gliders you wouldn't have
been aware of without Flarms is a big eye opener.

The question below about how 2 gliders can get very close without a
Flarm alert sounding is easily and logically explained; Flarm is not a
proximity alert, it is a potential collision course alert. *If two
gliders are close to each other but not on a collision course there is
no alert but if one then turns towards the other an alert will sound.
How else would one want the device to be configured? *Two Flarmed
gliders can cruise very close and parallel to each other (e.g. pair
flying) with no alerts but as soon as they turn only a few degrees
towards each other then the alarm sounds.

John Galloway

On 26 Oct, 18:47, "
wrote:



John,

I do not disagree with anything you say above. *I am glad you are
still alive. *I see the problem with big gaggles. *I think FLARM is a
useful tool in avoiding glider to glider collisions.

Well, I was thinking that maybe FLARM is creating false sense of
security? *Could contest pilots actually be tempted *to fly
dangerously, taking extra risks, assuming that if everybody has a
FLARM there is no problem??

How could two flarm equipped gliders possibly get within 10 feet of
each other? *I mean, at some earlier point in time they we
considerably further apart, so at what point does one or both pilots
take evasive action?

Or does FLARM somehow allow safe flight within 20 feet or 10 feet or
even closer?

Cookie- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

John G.

So, are you suggesting that two gliders can come within 10 feet of
each other and neither receive a FLARM alarm?

Seems to me the simple fact that they were previously some distance
apart, then, later, only 10 feet apart, seems like converging flight
paths to me.

Cookie

On Oct 26, 1:47*pm, "
wrote:
On Oct 26, 10:08*am, John Cochrane
wrote:





On Oct 26, 6:53*am, "

wrote:
From Sept 2010 "Soaring"...article on FLARM...

..."we were flying in big undiciplined gaggles"...

..."I received indications about one idiot who pulled in behind and
then passed 10 feet over me."...

..."I received many beeps from gliders following 20 feet behind and
just outside..."

Holy close call Batman! *..Undisciplined??!! .. * Idiot??!! * ... 10
feet over??!!.. * 20 feet??!!

*Are you thinking what I'm thinking???

Cookie

Well, I'm thinking I'm glad to be alive. I'm thinking that I like the
trend in US contest rules that take us away from mass gaggle flying,
and wish the worlds would take a stab in that direction as well. I'm
thinking flarm is a pretty darn good idea. What are you thinking?

John Cochrane

John,

I do not disagree with anything you say above. *I am glad you are
still alive. *I see the problem with big gaggles. *I think FLARM is a
useful tool in avoiding glider to glider collisions.

Well, I was thinking that maybe FLARM is creating false sense of
security? *Could contest pilots actually be tempted *to fly
dangerously, taking extra risks, assuming that if everybody has a
FLARM there is no problem??

How could two flarm equipped gliders possibly get within 10 feet of
each other? *I mean, at some earlier point in time they we
considerably further apart, so at what point does one or both pilots
take evasive action?

Or does FLARM somehow allow safe flight within 20 feet or 10 feet or
even closer?

Cookie- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Hey Guys........

I think you are missing my point / question here............In my
original post, I did not intend to simply re-open the FALRM pro or con
arguement...Note I changed the heading.

My point / question is in regard to John C's article in soaring, in
which his accounts left me with a very uneasy feeling.

Not about the FLARM, but about what a perceive as possible misuse of
FLARM, or false confidence, or increased risk taking, knowing every
glider is FLARM equipped (that's the "evil" part in my heading).

I am referring to the parts in the article about "idiot" and
"undisciplined".....and what a perceive as some close, near
collisions........

Are the pilots "idiots" and "undisciplined" because of the FALRM? Or
are they "idiots" and "undisciplined" in spite of the FLARM?

Cookie

On Oct 26, 4:38*pm, "
wrote:
On Oct 26, 1:47*pm, "





wrote:
On Oct 26, 10:08*am, John Cochrane
wrote:

On Oct 26, 6:53*am, "

wrote:
From Sept 2010 "Soaring"...article on FLARM...

..."we were flying in big undiciplined gaggles"...

..."I received indications about one idiot who pulled in behind and
then passed 10 feet over me."...

..."I received many beeps from gliders following 20 feet behind and
just outside..."

Holy close call Batman! *..Undisciplined??!! .. * Idiot??!! * .. 10
feet over??!!.. * 20 feet??!!

*Are you thinking what I'm thinking???

Cookie

Well, I'm thinking I'm glad to be alive. I'm thinking that I like the
trend in US contest rules that take us away from mass gaggle flying,
and wish the worlds would take a stab in that direction as well. I'm
thinking flarm is a pretty darn good idea. What are you thinking?

John Cochrane

John,

I do not disagree with anything you say above. *I am glad you are
still alive. *I see the problem with big gaggles. *I think FLARM is a
useful tool in avoiding glider to glider collisions.

Well, I was thinking that maybe FLARM is creating false sense of
security? *Could contest pilots actually be tempted *to fly
dangerously, taking extra risks, assuming that if everybody has a
FLARM there is no problem??

How could two flarm equipped gliders possibly get within 10 feet of
each other? *I mean, at some earlier point in time they we
considerably further apart, so at what point does one or both pilots
take evasive action?

Or does FLARM somehow allow safe flight within 20 feet or 10 feet or
even closer?

Cookie- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Hey Guys........

I think you are missing my point / question here............In my
original post, I did not intend to simply re-open the FALRM pro or con
arguement...Note I changed the heading.

My point / question is in regard to John C's article in soaring, in
which his accounts left me with a very uneasy feeling.

Not about the FLARM, but about what a perceive as possible misuse of
FLARM, or false confidence, or increased risk taking, knowing every
glider is FLARM equipped *(that's the "evil" *part in my heading).

I am referring to the parts in the article about "idiot" and
"undisciplined".....and what a perceive as some close, near
collisions........

Are the pilots "idiots" and "undisciplined" because of the FALRM? *Or
are they "idiots" and "undisciplined" in spite of the FLARM?

Cookie- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

The answer to your question is the same as the answer to the following
question: Are you flying less carefully because you are wearing a
parachute? I don't think so.

Ramy