FLARM.....for good, or evil??

On Oct 26, 10:46*am, kd6veb wrote:
Hi Gang
* Surely flying in a thermal with a gaggle of other gliders is
suicidal period. And what use is a Flarm in those conditions? I have a
Phoenix on order and am anticipating putting a PowerFlarm in it. Why?
Because the PowerFlarm has a PCAS function in addition to the Flarm
function and the PowerFlarm costs only a little more than a Zaon PCAS.
I do think the mandatory use of Flarm is a good idea for comps
especially if one can inexpensively rent a Flarm. But outside of comps
with the flying I do having a transponder is by far the most important
piece of safety equipment I have on board. A PCAS is also worth
having. Having a Flarm? It is a useless device until the use of Flarm
by the gliding community reaches critical mass (usage). That is
unlikely to happen here in the US for several years at best. And then
what about GA? What good is Flarm for GA? They are never going to use
it in the US. The FAA has another system in store for GA and
commercial aircraft.
Dave

Dave, are you no longer flying to the Whites? Cause otherwise I am
sure you'll agree that in the area you are flying, other than near
Reno, the biggest risk of mid air collision is with another glider
running the White Mountains. On a good day, there can be over 20
gliders dolphine flying at 100 knots (200 knots closing speed) in a
1000 feet altitude band and within half a mile lateral, in both
directions.

Ramy

Are the pilots "idiots" and "undisciplined" because of the FALRM? *Or
are they "idiots" and "undisciplined" in spite of the FLARM?

Cookie

My sense is that pilots at the worlds were flying the way they always
do. We were treated to daily briefings by Brian Spreckley with traces
and horror stories of near misses and collisions from all over Europe,
in contests with majority Flarm usage.

"Idiot" is perhaps a bit strong, and I may have been hasty in applying
it to a fellow pilot. On the other hand, he did pass 10-20 feet over
the top of my glider in a large gaggle. Perhaps he never saw me as
well. "Undisciplined" does stick. Really, when you know there are
20-30 gliders cruising together, one guy turning to the left and the
other of the pair turning to the right sets up 30 gliders turning in
both directions. Lots of people ignored all standard thermal
etiquette.

I think Flarm has a greater potential to seduce contest organizers
than pilots. Do you launch dozens of gliders into a low cloudbase; do
you set up multiple start areas or everyone start in one place; do you
set an assigned task which leads to more gaggling or an area task that
spreads people out more; do you worry about separating classes or
keep them on the same task; do you avoid out and return task legs, or
area tasks that set up flying up and down the same cloudstreet? Each
of these choices raises the chance of collisions, but are often
convenient for other reasons. Organizes and CDs may be tempted to
think, "well, they've all got Flarm, we can get away with it." I
hope we can fight this temptation.

John Cochrane

"kd6veb" wrote in message
:

Hi Gang
Surely flying in a thermal with a gaggle of other gliders is
suicidal period.

Huh!? Are you serious? Or just trying to wind us up... ????


Larry

On Oct 26, 9:03*pm, John Cochrane
wrote:

I think Flarm has a greater potential to seduce contest organizers
than pilots. [...]

Organizes and CDs may be tempted to
think, "well, they've all got Flarm, we can get away with it." * I
hope we can fight this temptation.

John Cochrane

Well... maybe I'm just picking good contests... but I don't think
there's a chance in hell that *any* of the contest organizers I've
encountered in the last decade would take that attitude, consciously
or not.

-Evan Ludeman / T8

On Oct 26, 10:46*am, kd6veb wrote:
what about GA? What good is Flarm for GA? They are never going to use
it in the US. The FAA has another system in store for GA and
commercial aircraft.

Seems to like cheap insurance for helicopters in metro areas as well
as airports with heavy training operations, as well as places such as
the Grand Canyon with heavy sightseeing operations. All of these
situations could easily get buy-in with a little bit of peer pressure
and local politics. Don't get the FAA involved, instead local pilot
groups and FBOs / commercial operators could make the case for
PowerFlarm as a useful tool for high density VFR operations. As
mentioned in other threads, ADS/B and ATC are just not designed for
these operations.

I recall that after the helicopter midair near Phoenix a few years
ago, there was a local news story of someone working on a $50K (fifty
thousand) solution to prevent these accidents.

Just my $0.02

-Tom

On Oct 26, 5:37*pm, Ramy wrote:
On Oct 26, 10:46*am, kd6veb wrote:



Hi Gang
* Surely flying in a thermal with a gaggle of other gliders is
suicidal period. And what use is a Flarm in those conditions? I have a
Phoenix on order and am anticipating putting a PowerFlarm in it. Why?
Because the PowerFlarm has a PCAS function in addition to the Flarm
function and the PowerFlarm costs only a little more than a Zaon PCAS.
I do think the mandatory use of Flarm is a good idea for comps
especially if one can inexpensively rent a Flarm. But outside of comps
with the flying I do having a transponder is by far the most important
piece of safety equipment I have on board. A PCAS is also worth
having. Having a Flarm? It is a useless device until the use of Flarm
by the gliding community reaches critical mass (usage). That is
unlikely to happen here in the US for several years at best. And then
Ramy wrote:
Dave, are you no longer flying to the Whites? Cause otherwise I am
sure you'll agree that in the area you are flying, other than near
Reno, the biggest risk of mid air collision is with another glider
running the White Mountains. On a good day, there can be over 20
gliders dolphine flying at 100 knots (200 knots closing speed) in a
1000 feet altitude band and within half a mile lateral, in both
directions.


Ramy
I fly the Whites with the transponder on like almost all responsible
glider pilots do. I also have PCAS on so if there is another pilot
near me with a transponder on I know that. Flarm is technically better
but why would we from the Reno area buy one having a transponder and
PCAS? I think you are missing the point of this discussion. Another
device that will only respond to other glider pilots having a Flarm?
This will not make sense to a large number of pilots who also want
protection from GA. I have said this many times but for us the
transponder is the most important safety device with PCAS a useful add
on. Flarm is a distant ( let me repeat that - A DISTANT THIRD) - on
the safety list of devices. I am not saying it is useless but until
about 50% of the glider pilots in the region you fly use one its
affect is marginal at best. That said I am purchasing one as I don't
see much downside for me but if I really had to tbe serious about
expenditures it would be a distant third on my list of safety devices
- transponder (90%), PCAS (8%) and guess where Flarm would be.
Dave

PS1 How are we going to persuade our FOBs at Minden to make the major
modification to Flarm when the installation of PowerFlarm in their
existing gliders may be difficult to say the least. The conversion to
transponders has been difficult enough for them and for Minden
transponders are clearly superior to Flarm. Hitting a commercial jet
with 200 passengers is not an option!

PS2 I wish risk management was taught in schools in the US.



what about GA? What good is Flarm for GA? They are never going to use
it in the US. The FAA has another system in store for GA and
commercial aircraft.
Dave

Dave, are you no longer flying to the Whites? Cause otherwise I am
sure you'll agree that in the area you are flying, other than near
Reno, the biggest risk of mid air collision is with another glider
running the White Mountains. On a good day, there can be over 20
gliders dolphine flying at 100 knots (200 knots closing speed) in a
1000 feet altitude band and within half a mile lateral, in both
directions.

Ramy

On Oct 26, 9:03*pm, John Cochrane
wrote:
Are the pilots "idiots" and "undisciplined" because of the FALRM? *Or
are they "idiots" and "undisciplined" in spite of the FLARM?

Cookie

My sense is that pilots at the worlds were flying the way they always
do. We were treated to daily briefings by Brian Spreckley with traces
and horror stories of near misses and collisions from all over Europe,
in contests with majority Flarm usage.

"Idiot" is perhaps a bit strong, and I may have been hasty in applying
it to a fellow pilot. On the other hand, he did pass 10-20 feet over
the top of my glider in a large gaggle. Perhaps he never saw me as
well. "Undisciplined" does stick. Really, when you know there are
20-30 gliders cruising together, one guy turning to the left and the
other of the pair turning to the right sets up 30 gliders turning in
both directions. Lots of people ignored all standard thermal
etiquette.

I think Flarm has a greater potential to seduce contest organizers
than pilots. Do you launch dozens of gliders into a low cloudbase; do
you set up multiple start areas or everyone start in one place; do you
set an assigned task which leads to more gaggling or an area task that
spreads people out *more; do you worry about separating classes or
keep them on the same task; do you avoid out and return task legs, or
area tasks that set up flying up and down the same cloudstreet? Each
of these choices raises the chance of collisions, but are often
convenient for other reasons. Organizes and CDs may be tempted to
think, "well, they've all got Flarm, we can get away with it." * I
hope we can fight this temptation.

John Cochrane

John,

Thanks for the follow up..........I think we have two different
concerns brought up by your article.
1)Flarm,
2) bad, risky, dangerous flying

Again from your account, I figure FLARM is the way to
go............you wouldn't want to be in that environment without a
FLARM.........

But...........

I thought the bigger topic is safety, and collision
avoidence..................

The pilots in that contest seemed to have no concern for that.
"Idiot" is not too strong of a word.....No technology is going to work
if the pilots don't let it work!

Cookie

On Oct 26, 9:03*pm, John Cochrane
wrote:
Are the pilots "idiots" and "undisciplined" because of the FALRM? *Or
are they "idiots" and "undisciplined" in spite of the FLARM?

Cookie

My sense is that pilots at the worlds were flying the way they always
do. We were treated to daily briefings by Brian Spreckley with traces
and horror stories of near misses and collisions from all over Europe,
in contests with majority Flarm usage.

"Idiot" is perhaps a bit strong, and I may have been hasty in applying
it to a fellow pilot. On the other hand, he did pass 10-20 feet over
the top of my glider in a large gaggle. Perhaps he never saw me as
well. "Undisciplined" does stick. Really, when you know there are
20-30 gliders cruising together, one guy turning to the left and the
other of the pair turning to the right sets up 30 gliders turning in
both directions. Lots of people ignored all standard thermal
etiquette.
...
John Cochrane

Heck, I've seen stuff like that in US contests *without* FLARM!

-- Matt

On 10/26/2010 10:22 PM, 5Z wrote:
On Oct 26, 10:46 am, wrote:
what about GA? What good is Flarm for GA? They are never going to use
it in the US. The FAA has another system in store for GA and
commercial aircraft.

Seems to like cheap insurance for helicopters in metro areas as well
as airports with heavy training operations, as well as places such as
the Grand Canyon with heavy sightseeing operations. All of these
situations could easily get buy-in with a little bit of peer pressure
and local politics. Don't get the FAA involved, instead local pilot
groups and FBOs / commercial operators could make the case for
PowerFlarm as a useful tool for high density VFR operations. As
mentioned in other threads, ADS/B and ATC are just not designed for
these operations.

I recall that after the helicopter midair near Phoenix a few years
ago, there was a local news story of someone working on a $50K (fifty
thousand) solution to prevent these accidents.

Just my $0.02

-Tom

What would make you think that ADS-B was not designed for high density
VFR operations???? That's exactly what it was designed for, before the
FAA focused everyone's attention on using the technology to decrease
separations between IFR aircraft.

--
Mike Schumann

On Oct 26, 8:14*pm, Mike Schumann
wrote:
On 10/26/2010 10:22 PM, 5Z wrote:

On Oct 26, 10:46 am, *wrote:
what about GA? What good is Flarm for GA? They are never going to use
it in the US. The FAA has another system in store for GA and
commercial aircraft.

Seems to like cheap insurance for helicopters in metro areas as well
as airports with heavy training operations, as well as places such as
the Grand Canyon with heavy sightseeing operations. *All of these
situations could easily get buy-in with a little bit of peer pressure
and local politics. *Don't get the FAA involved, instead local pilot
groups and FBOs / commercial operators could make the case for
PowerFlarm as a useful tool for high density VFR operations. *As
mentioned in other threads, ADS/B and ATC are just not designed for
these operations.

I recall that after the helicopter midair near Phoenix a few years
ago, there was a local news story of someone working on a $50K (fifty
thousand) solution to prevent these accidents.

Just my $0.02

-Tom

What would make you think that ADS-B was not designed for high density
VFR operations???? *That's exactly what it was designed for, before the
FAA focused everyone's attention on using the technology to decrease
separations between IFR aircraft.

--
Mike Schumann

Do you have reference to any ADS-B work on close quarters flying, like
links you can give to research, design, testing etc. related to close
flying like say where you have helicopters orbiting a crime scene or
accident and which vendors make those systems? That scenario may be
like thermalling in gliders, if I operated news helicopters or similar
I'd be interested in checking a PowerFLARM (since they are such low
cost and don't involve any reglatory hassle) and seeing how it worked.
I'd also probalby want to look at ADS-B if I could would work out an
affordable/approved install to test with.

The big work in helicopters with ADS-B was the Gulf of Mexico trial
where the core there was really solving in-flight separation and
moving out of the "one in the slot" sequencing where they had no radar
offshore radar. By all accounts the GOMEX trial was pretty positive.

All the helicopter operators in any area would also need to get
together and agree on what ADS=B link-layer they will operate on
because where/how helicopters fly they are quite likely to be outside
GBT coverage and won't have any ADS-R service at times. But hopefully
that's a short meeting to get agreement on.

There is significant experience gained from GOMEX (Gulf of Mexico)
helicopter 1090ES operation. Again thanks to the FAA STC installation
are required for each helicopter type and ADS-B data-out equipment.
Some of the work was done for the GOMEX trial could probalby be
updated to meet a new STC. The issue there likely will be justifying
this STC development for some of the lighter helicopters that won't
have any work from GOMEX to piggy back on -- and Garmin's GTX-330ES
(probably the natural choice for light-medium helicopter avionics
given Gamin's push there recently) is not quite ready with DO-260B rev
yet so I don't see the FAA allowing a TSO until it is. I'm guessing
equipped price per light-medium helicopter for ADS-B data-out and -in
and display is likely to start in the $10k range (depends if the
helicopter has an existing TSO'ed WAAS GPS or an existing display
capability (I suspect a PDA is not going to cut it to a busy
helicopter crew)). Its unclear to me if the GPS used is specific in
the ADS-B data-out STC, if so that's may be another hurdle. There may
be question about display systems suitable for a no-hands helicopter
pilot.

The obstacle database in Flarm might also be interesting esp. for the
very light helicopters vs. existing relatively expensive GA TAWS
systems. But there is a question of getting the obstacle database in
Flarm format.

Darryl