Another midair in the pattern

When I see the NTSB report 2 aircraft accidents at the same date, time
& place, it only means one thing. They came together in the air or on
the ground. On 12/20/10 in Madras Origon, a Taylorcraft and Cessna
came together while both were trying to land on runway16. The
Taylorcraft didn't have a radio! Please don't fly without a radio and
use it, Establish communication with your tow pilot by a simple com-
check like; Red tow this is JJ, how do you read? If I get a "loud and
clear", I know we can communicate if necessary. Next use your radio to
call entering the pattern, like "Madras traffic, glider JJ is entering
a left down-wind for runway 16 at Madras.

We lost 2 good men in Region 11 last year because the tow ship didn't
have a radio. Klem Bowman was killed in the Standard Class Nationals
when his stab fell and he didn't hear the call to release because he
was on the wrong frequency. An instructor died and his student was
severly injured when the battery went dead and they didn't hear the
tow pilot call, "Close your spoilers", a few years back at Minden.

The FAA hasn't seen fit to make radios mandatory, but we can put a
stop to this needless loss of life.Refuse to fly without a
radio.......... I believe proper use of the radio is nothing more than
good airmanship.

JJ Sinclair

On Jan 14, 10:26*am, JJ Sinclair wrote:
When I see the NTSB report 2 aircraft accidents at the same date, time
& place, it only means one thing. They came together in the air or on
the ground. On 12/20/10 in Madras Origon, a Taylorcraft and Cessna
came together while both were trying to land on runway16. The
Taylorcraft didn't have a radio! Please don't fly without a radio and
use it, Establish communication with your tow pilot by a simple com-
check like; Red tow this is JJ, how do you read? If I get a "loud and
clear", I know we can communicate if necessary. Next use your radio to
call entering the pattern, like "Madras traffic, glider JJ is entering
a left down-wind for runway 16 at Madras.

We lost 2 good men in Region 11 last year because the tow ship didn't
have a radio. Klem Bowman was killed in the Standard Class Nationals
when his stab fell and he didn't hear the call to release because he
was on the wrong frequency. An instructor died and his student was
severly injured when the battery went dead and they didn't hear the
tow pilot call, "Close your spoilers", a few years back at Minden.

The FAA hasn't seen fit to make radios mandatory, but we can put a
stop to this needless loss of life.Refuse to fly without a
radio.......... I believe proper use of the radio is nothing more than
good airmanship.

JJ Sinclair

There was a midair at SHD in Va. on 12/31 a helicopter and a C172,
everyone with radios, mode C squawing 1200 etc, and all talking/
monitoring the Unicom 123.00.....it still happens, a good pair of
20/20 eyeballs and some common sense goes a long way.

Yesterday, while on a 15 mile final in a B777, we
has a Cessna 182 pass 300 feet below us.
We got a traffic alert from ATC and a warning on
our TCAS (Traffic Collision Alert System). This is
very similar to the FLARM. From about 1/2 mile, we
finally had him visually as we flew over him. If the
pilot was looking out his window, there is no way he
could have missed seeing us.
When we get an alert from our TCAS, it really helps
us to locate the position of the threat, otherwise we
we don't need to look at it.
Everyone General Aviation/Glider pilot should have
a PCAS or FLARM. A midair with a commercial aircraft
will have devastating consequences for all of us.




Randy

On Jan 14, 3:02*pm, Randy wrote:
Yesterday, while on a 15 mile final in a B777, we
has a Cessna 182 *pass 300 feet below us.
We got a traffic alert from ATC and a warning on
our TCAS (Traffic Collision Alert System). This is
very similar to the FLARM. From about 1/2 mile, we
finally had him visually as we flew over him. If the
pilot was looking out his window, there is no way he
could have missed seeing us.
When we get an alert from our TCAS, it really helps
us to locate the position of the threat, otherwise we
we don't need to look at it.
Everyone General Aviation/Glider pilot should have
a PCAS or FLARM. A midair with a commercial aircraft
will have devastating consequences for all of us.

Randy

Sorry to be pedantic but if you fly with TCAS (actually TCAS II on a
777) you really should know what it is - "Traffic Alert and Collision
Avoidance System" not "Traffic Collision Alert System".

Don't take my word for it - http://adsb.tc.faa.gov/TCAS.htm and
numerous other references.

Andy

On 1/14/2011 5:02 PM, Randy wrote:
Yesterday, while on a 15 mile final in a B777, we
has a Cessna 182 pass 300 feet below us.
We got a traffic alert from ATC and a warning on
our TCAS (Traffic Collision Alert System). This is
very similar to the FLARM. From about 1/2 mile, we
finally had him visually as we flew over him. If the
pilot was looking out his window, there is no way he
could have missed seeing us.
When we get an alert from our TCAS, it really helps
us to locate the position of the threat, otherwise we
we don't need to look at it.
Everyone General Aviation/Glider pilot should have
a PCAS or FLARM. A midair with a commercial aircraft
will have devastating consequences for all of us.




Randy

If you are flying a 777 outside of Class A or Class B airspace, you need
to be looking out the window too. If you are flying IFR, ATC is only
providing separation services with other IFR aircraft. It is the
pilot's responsibility in both IFR and VFR aircraft to visually see and
avoid each other.

TCAS was never designed as the primary collision avoidance system. It
is not foolproof and was designed as a last line of defense when
everything else fails. That's how it should be getting used.

--
Mike Schumann

Originally Posted by JJ Sinclair[_2_]

When I see the NTSB report 2 aircraft accidents at the same date, time
& place, it only means one thing. They came together in the air or on
the ground. On 12/20/10 in Madras Origon, a Taylorcraft and Cessna
came together while both were trying to land on runway16. The
Taylorcraft didn't have a radio! Please don't fly without a radio and
use it, Establish communication with your tow pilot by a simple com-
check like; Red tow this is JJ, how do you read? If I get a "loud and
clear", I know we can communicate if necessary. Next use your radio to
call entering the pattern, like "Madras traffic, glider JJ is entering
a left down-wind for runway 16 at Madras.

We lost 2 good men in Region 11 last year because the tow ship didn't
have a radio. Klem Bowman was killed in the Standard Class Nationals
when his stab fell and he didn't hear the call to release because he
was on the wrong frequency. An instructor died and his student was
severly injured when the battery went dead and they didn't hear the
tow pilot call, "Close your spoilers", a few years back at Minden.

The FAA hasn't seen fit to make radios mandatory, but we can put a
stop to this needless loss of life.Refuse to fly without a
radio.......... I believe proper use of the radio is nothing more than
good airmanship.

JJ Sinclair

I agree. I transitioned to gliders a bit over a year ago and will admit that I was somewhat concerned that the trainers and other rental aircraft available had no radios. I purchased my own hand held and carry it on each flight, doing a radio check with the tow plane prior to take off. While the standard signals from the tow plane and glider are fine, the addition of the radio makes things a bit safer. Returning to the pattern for landing and announcing one's intentions over the radio enhances the safety margin unless of course there are aircraft which cannot hear the announcement or make one themselves.

Even at uncontrolled fields, powered aircraft generally announce their position and intentions on unicom. Why do we in the glider world think things should be any different, especially when we can't do a go around on landing? We share our gliderport with a number of powered aircraft and while everyone seems to do a fine job, one never knows when someone isn't looking. Looking and listening and announcing your position and intentions only enhances the safety factor.

I am looking for a headset with a PTT set up for my hand held, one cannot be too safe.

After a few close calls in thermals with other gliders I have also added a parachute to my list of required items. Most of the privately owned glass ship pilots wear chutes, no reason why one in a rental should not.

Walt

Folks wrote...
When I see the NTSB report 2 aircraft accidents at the same
date, time
& place, it only means one thing. They came together in the air or on
the ground. On 12/20/10 in Madras Origon, a Taylorcraft and Cessna
came together while both were trying to land on runway16. The
Taylorcraft didn't have a radio! Please don't fly without a radio and
use itSnips...


I agree. Snips......the addition of the radio makes things a bit safer. Returning to
the pattern for landing and announcing one's intentions over the radio
enhances the safety margin unless of course there are aircraft which
cannot hear the announcement or make one themselves.

Even at uncontrolled fields, powered aircraft generally announce their
position and intentions on unicom. Why do we in the glider world think
things should be any different, especially when we can't do a go around
on landing?...
Snips...

I'm not about to argue against the proposition that having and (wisely) using
a radio is not a (potentially, as distinct from automatically and inevitably)
good thing, but I do think it (perhaps) worthwhile mentioning at this point in
this particular discussion that some significant portion of the powerplane GA
fleet (e.g. that subset of those certified and built and remaining without an
electrical system) still do NOT have radios. Nor am I about to back any effort
to mandate they (or anyone else legally enjoying certain [large] areas of U.S.
airspace) be forced to do so. Life entails risk; flight perhaps more so than
if we choose to remain ground-bound.

Is there an honest pilot who doesn't admit we don't live in a risk-free world?
Is there an honest pilot who sees a way to get TO a risk-free world? Or do
some amongst us wish to mandate (in addition to immediately junking perfectly
airworthy 2-33's and every L-13 in sight [WARNING: wry humor nearby]) we also
junk every ATC-ed and airworthy powerplane lacking electrical systems?

While I understand the sentiments and pain behind lost fellow pilots (and
friends) - my own personal strictly-weekend-flyer total is nearing double
figures - I hope none of my living friends seriously would support such a mandate.

Seriously,
Bob W.

On Jan 14, 7:21*pm, Bob Whelan wrote:
Folks wrote...
When I see the NTSB report 2 aircraft accidents at the same
date, time
& *place, it only means one thing. They came together in the air or on
the ground. On 12/20/10 in Madras Origon, a Taylorcraft and Cessna
came together while both were trying to land on runway16. The
Taylorcraft didn't have a radio! Please don't fly without a radio and
use itSnips...

I agree. *Snips......the addition of the radio makes things a bit safer. *Returning to
the pattern for landing and announcing one's intentions over the radio
enhances the safety margin unless of course there are aircraft which
cannot hear the announcement or make one themselves.

Even at uncontrolled fields, powered aircraft generally announce their
position and intentions on unicom. *Why do we in the glider world think
things should be any different, especially when we can't do a go around
on landing?...

Snips...

I'm not about to argue against the proposition that having and (wisely) using
a radio is not a (potentially, as distinct from automatically and inevitably)
good thing, but I do think it (perhaps) worthwhile mentioning at this point in
this particular discussion that some significant portion of the powerplane GA
fleet (e.g. that subset of those certified and built and remaining without an
electrical system) still do NOT have radios. Nor am I about to back any effort
to mandate they (or anyone else legally enjoying certain [large] areas of U.S.
airspace) be forced to do so. Life entails risk; flight perhaps more so than
if we choose to remain ground-bound.

Is there an honest pilot who doesn't admit we don't live in a risk-free world?
Is there an honest pilot who sees a way to get TO a risk-free world? Or do
some amongst us wish to mandate (in addition to immediately junking perfectly
airworthy 2-33's and every L-13 in sight [WARNING: wry humor nearby]) we also
junk every ATC-ed and airworthy powerplane lacking electrical systems?

While I understand the sentiments and pain behind lost fellow pilots (and
friends) - my own personal strictly-weekend-flyer total is nearing double
figures - I hope none of my living friends seriously would support such a mandate.

Seriously,
Bob W.

I have quite a bit of time in a Piper J3 and also in an Aeronca 11BC.
Neither had an electrical system but both had radios. The fact that
there is no electrical system is not a reason not to have a radio in a
powered aircraft any more than it is in a glider.

I'm not saying carrying and using a radio should be mandatory, just
that not having an electrical system is no reason not to.

A local glider FBO has no radios in its tow planes. Just one of the
reasons I don't fly there any more.

Andy

On 1/14/2011 9:21 PM, Bob Whelan wrote:
Folks wrote...
When I see the NTSB report 2 aircraft accidents at the same
date, time
& place, it only means one thing. They came together in the air or on
the ground. On 12/20/10 in Madras Origon, a Taylorcraft and Cessna
came together while both were trying to land on runway16. The
Taylorcraft didn't have a radio! Please don't fly without a radio and
use itSnips...


I agree. Snips......the addition of the radio makes things a bit
safer. Returning to
the pattern for landing and announcing one's intentions over the radio
enhances the safety margin unless of course there are aircraft which
cannot hear the announcement or make one themselves.

Even at uncontrolled fields, powered aircraft generally announce their
position and intentions on unicom. Why do we in the glider world think
things should be any different, especially when we can't do a go around
on landing?...
Snips...

I'm not about to argue against the proposition that having and (wisely)
using a radio is not a (potentially, as distinct from automatically and
inevitably) good thing, but I do think it (perhaps) worthwhile
mentioning at this point in this particular discussion that some
significant portion of the powerplane GA fleet (e.g. that subset of
those certified and built and remaining without an electrical system)
still do NOT have radios. Nor am I about to back any effort to mandate
they (or anyone else legally enjoying certain [large] areas of U.S.
airspace) be forced to do so. Life entails risk; flight perhaps more so
than if we choose to remain ground-bound.

Is there an honest pilot who doesn't admit we don't live in a risk-free
world? Is there an honest pilot who sees a way to get TO a risk-free
world? Or do some amongst us wish to mandate (in addition to immediately
junking perfectly airworthy 2-33's and every L-13 in sight [WARNING: wry
humor nearby]) we also junk every ATC-ed and airworthy powerplane
lacking electrical systems?

While I understand the sentiments and pain behind lost fellow pilots
(and friends) - my own personal strictly-weekend-flyer total is nearing
double figures - I hope none of my living friends seriously would
support such a mandate.

Seriously,
Bob W.

What would be so onerous about a radio mandate, when handhelds are
widely available for ~$200?

--
Mike Schumann

I am looking for a headset with a PTT set up for my hand held, one
cannot be too safe.

After a few close calls in thermals with other gliders I have also added
a parachute to my list of required items. *Most of the privately owned
glass ship pilots wear chutes, no reason why one in a rental should not.


Walt, I did the exact same thing. Having a glider start circling with
me in a thermal for the first time was both exciting and scary, and it
is startling how little time you have to spot traffic when approaching
head on. First thing I bought was a parachute, the 2nd thing I
bought was a radio, and the THIRD thing I bought was a pair of
polarized prescription sunglasses, for the exact same reasons you
mention. I haven't gotten to wear the parachute much because I have
always been with an instructor and it was an inconvenience, but now
that I have my glider license I will be wearing it every flight and
using my radio too even in the rentals.

Tom (helipilot)