Some bad controllers

Fine, but while flying above the nasty icing clouds, don't ask for IFR to
descend to your destination in busy class B airspace!

Mike
MU-2

"Matthew S. Whiting" wrote in message
...
Mike Rapoport wrote:
If you are not prepared to fly in "nasty clouds" then you have no
business
filing, requesting or flying IFR.

Depends on your definition of nasty. I consider t-storm, funnel clouds,
and clouds with temps below freezing to be nasty and I won't fly into
them, at least not intentionally. I hardly think that means I have no
business flying IFR.

Not sure what the OPs definition of nasty is, but that is mine.


Matt

Maybe prepared is not the right word but you make a point of saying that
you:flew most of the trip VFR to aviod ice and yet you filed IFR into class
B airspace and complained about flying in clouds. You accepted the descent
to 7000 (amongst the clouds) while VFR. So basically you seem to be
complaining about not getting your clearance right away, having to fly IFR
in clouds and not getting the ILS in VMC. You also complain that he made
you descend for traffic, separating traffic is the controllers primary job.

If you are not comfortable flying in icing clouds then don't file IFR in
class B airspace when the temp is below freezing. Most of your issues where
of your own making and you should accept responsibilty for them instead of
blaming someone else. It is odd that the controller said that he was busy
on a quiet freq.

Mike
MU-2


"Jeff" wrote in message
...
and how was I not prepared ?


Mike Rapoport wrote:

If you are not prepared to fly in "nasty clouds" then you have no
business
filing, requesting or flying IFR.

Mike
MU-2

"Jeff" wrote in message
...
Just a quick note to any of you guys flying IFR into the phoenix area.
I just got back from a trip to phoenix from vegas, I had filed a
composit flgiht plan, VFR untill I was by phoenix then I would request
my IFR if it was needed since FSS reported overcast at 2700 and few at
600.

freezing level was 7000-8000, MEA was 9000 in some parts and 10,000
during other parts of route. I chose VFR the first part of the flight
so
I could have the latitude to dodge clouds to prevent icing.

all went fine, I got handed off to phoenix approach, I was at 12,000
ft
on top of the layer, no way into phoenix except through that mess
either. So I asked phoenix for my IFR and he said I was cleared into
class B and to decend to 7000 and he would look for my clearence. I
start my decent, between some clouds and he comes back and says to
turn
toward carefree if I want to pick up my IFR because he was to busy.
no
one was talking except me.
then he told me to stay clear of class B. so here I am now down from
my
safe altitude above the clouds, a nitwit controller, I zig zag between
some clouds and call him again, he says he cant see me on radar and to
turn towards carefree, so I figured I would follow the valley under
some
clouds, then my wife says dont turn that way, that mountain is covered
by clouds, so I get back on the radio and tell the controller he got
me
down here, I amnow stuck and I needed my clearence or I would be in
trouble. He finally said, ok, and gave it to me. man that guy ****ed
me
off. there was another guy trying to do the same thing as me in a
cessna, right after I got my clearence, and the controller told him to
stay at 2500 ft and turn towards carefree because he was "saturated"
with IFR departures. Yet no one else was talking. then here I am in
these nasty clouds, outside temp about -2, he gives me to decend to
6000, then right after that screams at me traffic alert decend to 5000
...so I am in total IMC diving down to 5000 ft.. then he does not
want
me to do the ILS, he tells me to decend to 2700 ft and to be prepared
for the visual. man what a crappy flight - and I didnt even tell you
about the 1500 fpm downdraft or when my engine started losing power.

that controller still has me ****ed off and its 2 days later.

Jeff-

Perhaps the other aircraft was VFR? If it was, the controller is under
no obligation to separate you. Their job is to separate IFR from IFR
aircraft, and on a "time available" basis separate IFR from VFR, and
VFR from VFR. To me it sounds like the controller did everything
right, and you did (most) everything wrong.

I urge you to look back on Jeff's posts... everytime it is a problem
that he encountered that was SOMEONE ELSES fault. The guy can clearly
do no wrong.

Doug

Jeff wrote in message ...
ya he was so busy he almost let someone fly into me.

Doug Rinks wrote:
Jeff,

A couple things.. I think out of fairness to the controller the only
thing which you can say is that he was not busy on your freqency. It
is possible that he was busy on another freqency which you were unable
to hear,

No, it's not possible. If you cannot hear the controller then he is not
saying anything.

Not exactly.. Phoenix gets monsoons nearly every night during the
summer. That surely counts as IMC.

Doug

Jeff wrote in message ...
ya he was so busy he almost let someone fly into me.

no matter how you dice it, that should not have happened. Phoenix does not get much IMC, its
sunny about 350 days a year there.

"Doug Rinks" wrote in message
om...

Perhaps the other aircraft was VFR? If it was, the controller is under
no obligation to separate you. Their job is to separate IFR from IFR
aircraft, and on a "time available" basis separate IFR from VFR, and
VFR from VFR. To me it sounds like the controller did everything
right, and you did (most) everything wrong.


In Class B airspace the controller must separate IFR from VFR and VFR from
VFR, and "time available" has nothing to do with it.

and how was I not prepared ?


Mike Rapoport wrote:

If you are not prepared to fly in "nasty clouds" then you have no business
filing, requesting or flying IFR.

Mike
MU-2


I think Mike meant you should never be cutting it so close that some
sort of an ATC screwup makes it uncomfortable, or even dangerous. I am
not saying that's what you did (flying a single in the Pacific NW, I
know the on-top/slamdunk game well), but he does have a valid point,
even if it sounds smug from the flightdeck of a deiced turboprop ;-)

I would only add that in my (admitedly limited) experience, it helps
to be forthright with ATC about why you want something, if milling
around in icy tops is a concern, let them know.

Martin

To expand on Martin's correct interpretation of what I meant (but perhaps
didn't express well), you shouldn't be dependent on ATC being able to
accommodate your every wish, particularly in class B airspace. If you
really can't fly in clouds because of icing, then remain VFR. It isn't a
"screwup" on ATC's part that they can't let a pilot fly any heading and
altitude that he wishes, it is the pilots"screwup" that he is dependent on
them doing so.

Mike
MU-2


"Martin Kosina" wrote in message
om...
and how was I not prepared ?


Mike Rapoport wrote:

If you are not prepared to fly in "nasty clouds" then you have no
business
filing, requesting or flying IFR.

Mike
MU-2


I think Mike meant you should never be cutting it so close that some
sort of an ATC screwup makes it uncomfortable, or even dangerous. I am
not saying that's what you did (flying a single in the Pacific NW, I
know the on-top/slamdunk game well), but he does have a valid point,
even if it sounds smug from the flightdeck of a deiced turboprop ;-)

I would only add that in my (admitedly limited) experience, it helps
to be forthright with ATC about why you want something, if milling
around in icy tops is a concern, let them know.

Martin

when did I complain about flying in the clouds?
who complained about not getting the ILS in VMC ?
who said I was not comfortable with flying in the clouds?

I think you misread some things.


Mike Rapoport wrote:

Maybe prepared is not the right word but you make a point of saying that
you:flew most of the trip VFR to aviod ice and yet you filed IFR into class
B airspace and complained about flying in clouds. You accepted the descent
to 7000 (amongst the clouds) while VFR. So basically you seem to be
complaining about not getting your clearance right away, having to fly IFR
in clouds and not getting the ILS in VMC. You also complain that he made
you descend for traffic, separating traffic is the controllers primary job.

If you are not comfortable flying in icing clouds then don't file IFR in
class B airspace when the temp is below freezing. Most of your issues where
of your own making and you should accept responsibilty for them instead of
blaming someone else. It is odd that the controller said that he was busy
on a quiet freq.

Mike
MU-2

"Jeff" wrote in message
...
and how was I not prepared ?


Mike Rapoport wrote:

If you are not prepared to fly in "nasty clouds" then you have no
business
filing, requesting or flying IFR.

Mike
MU-2

"Jeff" wrote in message
...
Just a quick note to any of you guys flying IFR into the phoenix area.
I just got back from a trip to phoenix from vegas, I had filed a
composit flgiht plan, VFR untill I was by phoenix then I would request
my IFR if it was needed since FSS reported overcast at 2700 and few at
600.

freezing level was 7000-8000, MEA was 9000 in some parts and 10,000
during other parts of route. I chose VFR the first part of the flight
so
I could have the latitude to dodge clouds to prevent icing.

all went fine, I got handed off to phoenix approach, I was at 12,000
ft
on top of the layer, no way into phoenix except through that mess
either. So I asked phoenix for my IFR and he said I was cleared into
class B and to decend to 7000 and he would look for my clearence. I
start my decent, between some clouds and he comes back and says to
turn
toward carefree if I want to pick up my IFR because he was to busy.
no
one was talking except me.
then he told me to stay clear of class B. so here I am now down from
my
safe altitude above the clouds, a nitwit controller, I zig zag between
some clouds and call him again, he says he cant see me on radar and to
turn towards carefree, so I figured I would follow the valley under
some
clouds, then my wife says dont turn that way, that mountain is covered
by clouds, so I get back on the radio and tell the controller he got
me
down here, I amnow stuck and I needed my clearence or I would be in
trouble. He finally said, ok, and gave it to me. man that guy ****ed
me
off. there was another guy trying to do the same thing as me in a
cessna, right after I got my clearence, and the controller told him to
stay at 2500 ft and turn towards carefree because he was "saturated"
with IFR departures. Yet no one else was talking. then here I am in
these nasty clouds, outside temp about -2, he gives me to decend to
6000, then right after that screams at me traffic alert decend to 5000
...so I am in total IMC diving down to 5000 ft.. then he does not
want
me to do the ILS, he tells me to decend to 2700 ft and to be prepared
for the visual. man what a crappy flight - and I didnt even tell you
about the 1500 fpm downdraft or when my engine started losing power.

that controller still has me ****ed off and its 2 days later.

if he was VFR he was in the wrong place.
perhaps he was VFR and just decided to exit the area on his own which is a possibility.

what was it I did wrong again? I dont recall and do not recall you sitting next to me with a
note pad?

Doug Rinks wrote:

Jeff-

Perhaps the other aircraft was VFR? If it was, the controller is under
no obligation to separate you. Their job is to separate IFR from IFR
aircraft, and on a "time available" basis separate IFR from VFR, and
VFR from VFR. To me it sounds like the controller did everything
right, and you did (most) everything wrong.

I urge you to look back on Jeff's posts... everytime it is a problem
that he encountered that was SOMEONE ELSES fault. The guy can clearly
do no wrong.

Doug

Jeff wrote in message ...
ya he was so busy he almost let someone fly into me.