Some bad controllers

Jeff wrote:

but its high clouds for the most part, you dont get the clouds covering the mountains like you had
this last week or so.

Oh, please excuse me, as an airline pilot who operated into PHX at all times during the year for 27
years.

that does not say I am unconfortable flying in the clouds. It only means I was
trying to avoid the ones at the freezing levels. thats all it means. nothing
more and nothing less.
your trying to make something out of nothing with out actually being there.


Mike Rapoport wrote:

Did you write the following?

"I chose VFR the first part of the flight so I could have the latitude to
dodge clouds to prevent icing."

"so here I am now down from my safe altitude above the clouds"

"then here I am in these nasty clouds, outside temp about -2"

"then he does not want me to do the ILS, he tells me to decend to 2700 ft
and to be prepared for the visual. man what a crappy flight"

Mike
MU-2

"Jeff" wrote in message
...
when did I complain about flying in the clouds?

who complained about not getting the ILS in VMC

who said I was not comfortable with flying in the clouds?

I think you misread some things.


Mike Rapoport wrote:

Maybe prepared is not the right word but you make a point of saying that
you:flew most of the trip VFR to aviod ice and yet you filed IFR into
class
B airspace and complained about flying in clouds. You accepted the
descent
to 7000 (amongst the clouds) while VFR. So basically you seem to be
complaining about not getting your clearance right away, having to fly
IFR
in clouds and not getting the ILS in VMC. You also complain that he
made
you descend for traffic, separating traffic is the controllers primary
job.

If you are not comfortable flying in icing clouds then don't file IFR in
class B airspace when the temp is below freezing. Most of your issues
where
of your own making and you should accept responsibilty for them instead
of
blaming someone else. It is odd that the controller said that he was
busy
on a quiet freq.

Mike
MU-2

"Jeff" wrote in message
...
and how was I not prepared ?


Mike Rapoport wrote:

If you are not prepared to fly in "nasty clouds" then you have no
business
filing, requesting or flying IFR.

Mike
MU-2

"Jeff" wrote in message
...
Just a quick note to any of you guys flying IFR into the phoenix
area.
I just got back from a trip to phoenix from vegas, I had filed a
composit flgiht plan, VFR untill I was by phoenix then I would
request
my IFR if it was needed since FSS reported overcast at 2700 and
few at
600.

freezing level was 7000-8000, MEA was 9000 in some parts and
10,000
during other parts of route. I chose VFR the first part of the
flight
so
I could have the latitude to dodge clouds to prevent icing.

all went fine, I got handed off to phoenix approach, I was at
12,000
ft
on top of the layer, no way into phoenix except through that mess
either. So I asked phoenix for my IFR and he said I was cleared
into
class B and to decend to 7000 and he would look for my clearence.
I
start my decent, between some clouds and he comes back and says to
turn
toward carefree if I want to pick up my IFR because he was to
busy.
no
one was talking except me.
then he told me to stay clear of class B. so here I am now down
from
my
safe altitude above the clouds, a nitwit controller, I zig zag
between
some clouds and call him again, he says he cant see me on radar
and to
turn towards carefree, so I figured I would follow the valley
under
some
clouds, then my wife says dont turn that way, that mountain is
covered
by clouds, so I get back on the radio and tell the controller he
got
me
down here, I amnow stuck and I needed my clearence or I would be
in
trouble. He finally said, ok, and gave it to me. man that guy
****ed
me
off. there was another guy trying to do the same thing as me in a
cessna, right after I got my clearence, and the controller told
him to
stay at 2500 ft and turn towards carefree because he was
"saturated"
with IFR departures. Yet no one else was talking. then here I am
in
these nasty clouds, outside temp about -2, he gives me to decend
to
6000, then right after that screams at me traffic alert decend to
5000
...so I am in total IMC diving down to 5000 ft.. then he does not
want
me to do the ILS, he tells me to decend to 2700 ft and to be
prepared
for the visual. man what a crappy flight - and I didnt even tell
you
about the 1500 fpm downdraft or when my engine started losing
power.

that controller still has me ****ed off and its 2 days later.

your trying to make something out of nothing with out actually being there.

I believe that's "you're" you meant to write, not "your."

By the way, where's your answer about the superior service from SoCal TRACON with
IFR pick-ups over the DAG/HEC area?

I have received IFR requests from LAS and from SoCal, I have received a IFR
departures from long beach, riverside and chino. Each time it was from the
tower or CD, not through FSS.

I dont know if its up to the controller or not on how they process IFR
requests, but this was not a pop up, he had my flight plan.
In hind site, I know now not to expect to be able to do this in the phoenix
area, and to get any clearance I need going into phoenix from ABQ.

"Everett M. Greene" wrote:

(Doug Rinks) writes:

A couple things.. I think out of fairness to the controller the only
thing which you can say is that he was not busy on your freqency. It
is possible that he was busy on another freqency which you were unable
to hear, or he could have been busy coordinating your clearance, or
maybe even coordinating departures, so you would not create a problem
for them. You just never know without seeing the other side.

The thing to remember here is that you were VFR, and asked to pickup
your IFR clearance in the air. That by definition gives you less
priority in the system compared to other already IFR aircraft. Maybe
the lesson here is not to pickup your clearance in a terminal area,
but rather do it from the center prior to entering the TRACON's
airspace. I can assure you that the controller wasn't blaming the
delay on saturation for no reason.. there was obviously saturation
either in his sector, or in a sector which was ahead, and/or below
you.

I once tried to get a clearance from PVD approach on a
popup from Newport on a CAVU night. There wasn't an
airplane in the sky except us and we were told there'd
be a 45 minute delay. And PVD isn't that busy at the
worst of times...

"Matthew S. Whiting" wrote in message
...
Steven P. McNicoll wrote:
"Teacherjh" wrote in message
...

On that frequency. Controllers often work many frequencies,
and do things besides talk on the radio.



When controllers are working many frequencies they typically broadcast
on
all of them simultaneously. You won't hear other aircraft, but you will
hear the controller.



Is this true for all positions? I think our local controllers (sleepy
old ELM) sometimes work tower and ground at the same time and you don't
hear the ground communications on tower and vice versa.


I don't know about in a tower cab, but when positions (ie-sectors) are
combined within radar facilities, the frequencies (transmitters and
receivers) are routed to whatever position gets the airspace. Thus, the
controller can hear on all freq's assigned to his airspace, and only has to
key his own mic to transmit. His transmissions are broadcast on all
frequencies he is working even though other stations can only hear the voice
traffic on their discrete freq. And I'm sure there could be non VSCS
exceptions in the wide open spaces of ARTCC's like ZAN, ZLC, ZDV, but surely
not in a tiny little piece of airspace that is a Tracon like Phoenix. (not
saying they ain't busy, just that Tracons don't usually cover much
territory....)

Chip, ZTL

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message
ink.net...

"Matthew S. Whiting" wrote in message
...

It is not unusual for a controller to work more than one frequency.
That fact that you didn't hear any other traffic, doesn't mean there
wasn't other traffic.


The fact that he didn't hear the controller transmit to other aircraft
suggests there was no other traffic.


That's what I picked up on too. Of course, with no other traffic in IMC, a
traffic alert on a pair of IFR's seems a bit odd. After all, if he wasn't
busy...

Chip, ZTL

one bad thing about filing IFR here is that you have to go around all the
MOA's, ABQ told me that if I wanted to get my clearance from them I would have
to turn towards drake and get out of the MOA. picking up your IFR when you need
it allows you to fly through the MOA's and if they are not active, the
restricted area's also. Flying IFR, I would have got peach springs, drake then
phoenix. The worst of the weather was in that direction, the better weather was
the other direction. this was according to FSS. But they also said skies were
clear all the way to the edge of phoenix. I found out that was wrong.

"Matthew S. Whiting" wrote:

Mike Rapoport wrote:
Fine, but while flying above the nasty icing clouds, don't ask for IFR to
descend to your destination in busy class B airspace!

I won't because I almost always file IFR the entire trip. Just seems
easier in many respects and I don't mind talking to the friendly (mostly
anyway) ATC folks. :-)

Matt

actually there was a RJ departing, I saw him pop up over the clouds, there was
a 172 at 2000 ft wanting 5000 but was told to turn towards carefree or stay VFR,
his choice and there was a archer shooting approaches into IWA, 4 navy planes
departed IWA to the south 30 minutes after I landed and oh ya, the guy who made
me have to dive to 5000 because the airspace was so congestested.

I am not saying any controller in class B airspace is not busy, I am sure they
are.
but so busy to the point where they cannot handle any more arrivals, even a slow
airplane like mine.

I have a pretty good idea how to do this flying stuff. But as I said, I will
plan my flights into phoenix differently the next time and get any clearance I
need from ABQ.




Mike Rapoport wrote:

Yeah, I was sitting right next to him when you called. Visiting the ATC
center ya know? Saw the whole thing. He wanted to finish the game of
solitaire that he was playing on the radar scope and didn't want to be
bothered issuing a clearance, so he made up the whole part about being busy.
There really were't any airliners departing PHX that night, no military or
other GA traffic either.

Mike
MU-2

"Jeff" wrote in message
...
and how do you know it was busy ?
were you sitting next to the controller - or is this just another
assumption
on your part?


Mike Rapoport wrote:

Fine, but while flying above the nasty icing clouds, don't ask for IFR
to
descend to your destination in busy class B airspace!

Mike
MU-2

"Matthew S. Whiting" wrote in message
...
Mike Rapoport wrote:
If you are not prepared to fly in "nasty clouds" then you have no
business
filing, requesting or flying IFR.

Depends on your definition of nasty. I consider t-storm, funnel
clouds,
and clouds with temps below freezing to be nasty and I won't fly into
them, at least not intentionally. I hardly think that means I have no
business flying IFR.

Not sure what the OPs definition of nasty is, but that is mine.


Matt

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote:

I recall working with a former Denver Center controller nearly twenty
years ago who described working a sector with multiple transceiver
sites using the same frequency. He had to select which site to use
depending on the location of the aircraft.


I've experienced that very situation also, in Denver and ABQ airspace. It
got so confusing one time, that the controller had to make a broadcast to
explain it to all us VFR flight following types, that he had multiple
transmitters on the same frequency, and not to worry if you don't hear
every transmission. What I've always wondered, is why do they bother? Are
they just trying to save a little electricity? It seems like this switching
of transmitters on and off is just extra workload for them with no
particular advantage. No one else is using the frequency in that area
except him. What am I missing?

Mike

In article et,
"Mike Rapoport" wrote:

If you are not prepared to fly in "nasty clouds" then you have no business
filing, requesting or flying IFR.


That's an interesting perspective since most of the airliners in the
local class B seem to want to stay out of the clouds, particularly in
the summer time, to avoid the bumps from convective activity... and I'm
talking about fairly mundane cumulus clouds. Doesn't seem to be a
problem for them, and it's never been a problem for me, but I don't ask
for pop-up IFR clearances either.

The bottom line is that the needs and capabilities of every aircraft may
be different, but just because someone doesn't have a known-ice aircraft
with radar and turbines on the wings doesn't mean that he shouldn't file
or fly IFR. It simply means that he needs to communicate his needs and
reasons for his requests to controllers who may be used to dealing with
a different type of aircraft.


JKG