New Army Aviation Options?

I just wanted to start a new thread specifically to look at the new aircraft
the Army is talking about buying instead of the Comanche, and see what
options there are available. As I read the briefings, there are basically
three new manned platforms. I doubt there is funding for new designs in any
of these roles. While it is really premature to say too much, with no
actual performance requirements set, I'm curious what options folks see for
each.

1) Armed Reconnaissance Helicopter (368 to be bought).

Could this be a Sikorsky H-76?

The USCG is using A-109s for their armed helicopter role; is this an option?

2) Light Utility Helicopter (303 to be bought)

I know the Bell 412 has been mentioned.

Might the Marine Corps UH-1Y also be a candidate? (Is this Huey II?)

3) C-XX Intra-Theater Lift (25 to be bought)

Presumably C-27J is the frontrunner. What other options are there?


--
Tom Schoene Replace "invalid" with "net" to e-mail
"If brave men and women never died, there would be nothing
special about bravery." -- Andy Rooney (attributed)

"Thomas Schoene" wrote in message
ink.net...
I just wanted to start a new thread specifically to look at the new
aircraft
the Army is talking about buying instead of the Comanche, and see what
options there are available. As I read the briefings, there are basically
three new manned platforms. I doubt there is funding for new designs in
any
of these roles. While it is really premature to say too much, with no
actual performance requirements set, I'm curious what options folks see
for
each.

1) Armed Reconnaissance Helicopter (368 to be bought).

Could this be a Sikorsky H-76?

The USCG is using A-109s for their armed helicopter role; is this an
option?

I'd say both could be potential candidates, as could the MD 600 or 900
series (though the Army has in the past rather disliked the NOTAR concept,
having modified those MH-6's they had in that configuration back to
conventional tail rotor designs). Somewhat off-the-wall candidate would be
the A-129 Mangusta, which unlike the other candidates you note (other than
the H-76, to some extent) already has a well developed armament and sensor
suite. The Tiger is a no-show; probably more expensive than the other
candidates, and with a lot of political baggage to overcome.


2) Light Utility Helicopter (303 to be bought)

I know the Bell 412 has been mentioned.

Might the Marine Corps UH-1Y also be a candidate? (Is this Huey II?)

I doubt the UH-1Y could be a candidate. They are dependent upon having the
requisite airframes available for modification, and the Army Hueys were
quite different from the twin-engine USMC variants. Huey II is another
aircraft modification program, much less dramatic than the UH-1Y program.
The II retained the same rotor and mast system, with new engine/transmission
and revised tail rotor and stabilizer, and I would assume some "glass
cockpit" work, along with the more streamlined nose of the 412 series. I
think the Army would just as soon get completely away from the old
cumbersome rotor system and have rigid rotor mounts across its entire fleet,
so I would bet the 412 has the edge. One possible caveat to my first comment
on the -1Y--if there were enough old USAF UH-1N's at DM and they could be
modified to the same standard as the -1Y, then that could possibly make it a
viable alternative.


3) C-XX Intra-Theater Lift (25 to be bought)

Presumably C-27J is the frontrunner. What other options are there?

Realistically, just the CN-295. Odds are the C-27J gets that one; some
commonality with the C-130J family is a plus, and the folks at NGB (or at
least NGAUS) have already expressed some interest in it in the past. ISTR
that the cargo space geometry in the Spartan is a bit better than the CN-295
as well.

Brooks



--
Tom Schoene Replace "invalid" with "net" to e-mail
"If brave men and women never died, there would be nothing
special about bravery." -- Andy Rooney (attributed)

On Wed, 25 Feb 2004 23:33:37 -0500, "Kevin Brooks"
wrote:


"Thomas Schoene" wrote in message
link.net...
I just wanted to start a new thread specifically to look at the new
aircraft
the Army is talking about buying instead of the Comanche, and see what
options there are available. As I read the briefings, there are basically
three new manned platforms. I doubt there is funding for new designs in
any
of these roles. While it is really premature to say too much, with no
actual performance requirements set, I'm curious what options folks see
for
each.

1) Armed Reconnaissance Helicopter (368 to be bought).

Could this be a Sikorsky H-76?

The USCG is using A-109s for their armed helicopter role; is this an
option?
USCG uses the French Daulphin, the attack version of it is called the
Panther. wich is more advanced design then the A-109 IMO, but it could
be an good idea to have a common airframe for multiple branches. But
you would have to update for todays use, with new/better engines etc.

I'd say both could be potential candidates, as could the MD 600 or 900
series (though the Army has in the past rather disliked the NOTAR concept,
having modified those MH-6's they had in that configuration back to
conventional tail rotor designs). Somewhat off-the-wall candidate would be
the A-129 Mangusta, which unlike the other candidates you note (other than
the H-76, to some extent) already has a well developed armament and sensor
suite. The Tiger is a no-show; probably more expensive than the other
candidates, and with a lot of political baggage to overcome.


2) Light Utility Helicopter (303 to be bought)

I know the Bell 412 has been mentioned.

Might the Marine Corps UH-1Y also be a candidate? (Is this Huey II?)

I doubt the UH-1Y could be a candidate. They are dependent upon having the
requisite airframes available for modification, and the Army Hueys were
quite different from the twin-engine USMC variants. Huey II is another
aircraft modification program, much less dramatic than the UH-1Y program.
The II retained the same rotor and mast system, with new engine/transmission
and revised tail rotor and stabilizer, and I would assume some "glass
cockpit" work, along with the more streamlined nose of the 412 series. I
think the Army would just as soon get completely away from the old
cumbersome rotor system and have rigid rotor mounts across its entire fleet,
so I would bet the 412 has the edge. One possible caveat to my first comment
on the -1Y--if there were enough old USAF UH-1N's at DM and they could be
modified to the same standard as the -1Y, then that could possibly make it a
viable alternative.


3) C-XX Intra-Theater Lift (25 to be bought)

Presumably C-27J is the frontrunner. What other options are there?

Realistically, just the CN-295. Odds are the C-27J gets that one; some
commonality with the C-130J family is a plus, and the folks at NGB (or at
least NGAUS) have already expressed some interest in it in the past. ISTR
that the cargo space geometry in the Spartan is a bit better than the CN-295
as well.

Brooks



--
Tom Schoene Replace "invalid" with "net" to e-mail
"If brave men and women never died, there would be nothing
special about bravery." -- Andy Rooney (attributed)

"Lyle" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 25 Feb 2004 23:33:37 -0500, "Kevin Brooks"
wrote:


"Thomas Schoene" wrote in message
link.net...
I just wanted to start a new thread specifically to look at the new
aircraft
the Army is talking about buying instead of the Comanche, and see what
options there are available. As I read the briefings, there are
basically
three new manned platforms. I doubt there is funding for new designs
in
any
of these roles. While it is really premature to say too much, with no
actual performance requirements set, I'm curious what options folks see
for
each.

1) Armed Reconnaissance Helicopter (368 to be bought).

Could this be a Sikorsky H-76?

The USCG is using A-109s for their armed helicopter role; is this an
option?

USCG uses the French Daulphin, the attack version of it is called the
Panther.

No, the USCG uses both the HH-65 Dolphin *and* the MH-68 (A-109); only the
latter is armed, and assigned to the Helicopter Interdiction Tactical
Squadron (HITRON).

Brooks

snip

"Kevin Brooks" wrote in message
...

"Lyle" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 25 Feb 2004 23:33:37 -0500, "Kevin Brooks"
wrote:


"Thomas Schoene" wrote in message
link.net...
I just wanted to start a new thread specifically to look at the new
aircraft
the Army is talking about buying instead of the Comanche, and see
what
options there are available. As I read the briefings, there are
basically
three new manned platforms. I doubt there is funding for new designs
in
any
of these roles. While it is really premature to say too much, with
no
actual performance requirements set, I'm curious what options folks
see
for
each.

1) Armed Reconnaissance Helicopter (368 to be bought).

Could this be a Sikorsky H-76?

The USCG is using A-109s for their armed helicopter role; is this an
option?

USCG uses the French Daulphin, the attack version of it is called the
Panther.

No, the USCG uses both the HH-65 Dolphin *and* the MH-68 (A-109); only the
latter is armed, and assigned to the Helicopter Interdiction Tactical
Squadron (HITRON).

Brooks

Last minute update-- an article appeared earlier this month indicating that,
after completing armament of the HH-60's, the HH-65's will receive an
armament capability in the not-too-distant future.

www.rotorhub.com/news/0211/hpower17.htm

Brooks

snip

Kevin Brooks wrote:

Last minute update-- an article appeared earlier this month
indicating that, after completing armament of the HH-60's, the
HH-65's will receive an armament capability in the not-too-distant
future.

The armed A109s are leased, so I guess the Coasties would like to get the
capability back into planes they actually own. When the armed helo first
was proposed, the case was made that the Dolphin didn't have enough weight
margins; I wonder what they're doing to change that situation.

--
Tom Schoene Replace "invalid" with "net" to e-mail
"If brave men and women never died, there would be nothing
special about bravery." -- Andy Rooney (attributed)

On Thu, 26 Feb 2004 13:12:03 -0800, Lyle wrote:

On Wed, 25 Feb 2004 23:33:37 -0500, "Kevin Brooks"
wrote:


"Thomas Schoene" wrote in message
hlink.net...
I just wanted to start a new thread specifically to look at the new
aircraft
the Army is talking about buying instead of the Comanche, and see what
options there are available. As I read the briefings, there are basically
three new manned platforms. I doubt there is funding for new designs in
any
of these roles. While it is really premature to say too much, with no
actual performance requirements set, I'm curious what options folks see
for
each.

1) Armed Reconnaissance Helicopter (368 to be bought).

Could this be a Sikorsky H-76?

The USCG is using A-109s for their armed helicopter role; is this an
option?
Stand corrected, didnt know that the USCG used A-109's, so i
went to look up more information about it. Seems that they are useing
the A-109 to knock out the engines out boats with high powerd rifles.
USCG uses the French Daulphin, the attack version of it is called the
Panther. wich is more advanced design then the A-109 IMO, but it could
be an good idea to have a common airframe for multiple branches. But
you would have to update for todays use, with new/better engines etc.

I'd say both could be potential candidates, as could the MD 600 or 900
series (though the Army has in the past rather disliked the NOTAR concept,
having modified those MH-6's they had in that configuration back to
conventional tail rotor designs). Somewhat off-the-wall candidate would be
the A-129 Mangusta, which unlike the other candidates you note (other than
the H-76, to some extent) already has a well developed armament and sensor
suite. The Tiger is a no-show; probably more expensive than the other
candidates, and with a lot of political baggage to overcome.


2) Light Utility Helicopter (303 to be bought)

I know the Bell 412 has been mentioned.

Might the Marine Corps UH-1Y also be a candidate? (Is this Huey II?)

I doubt the UH-1Y could be a candidate. They are dependent upon having the
requisite airframes available for modification, and the Army Hueys were
quite different from the twin-engine USMC variants. Huey II is another
aircraft modification program, much less dramatic than the UH-1Y program.
The II retained the same rotor and mast system, with new engine/transmission
and revised tail rotor and stabilizer, and I would assume some "glass
cockpit" work, along with the more streamlined nose of the 412 series. I
think the Army would just as soon get completely away from the old
cumbersome rotor system and have rigid rotor mounts across its entire fleet,
so I would bet the 412 has the edge. One possible caveat to my first comment
on the -1Y--if there were enough old USAF UH-1N's at DM and they could be
modified to the same standard as the -1Y, then that could possibly make it a
viable alternative.


3) C-XX Intra-Theater Lift (25 to be bought)

Presumably C-27J is the frontrunner. What other options are there?

Realistically, just the CN-295. Odds are the C-27J gets that one; some
commonality with the C-130J family is a plus, and the folks at NGB (or at
least NGAUS) have already expressed some interest in it in the past. ISTR
that the cargo space geometry in the Spartan is a bit better than the CN-295
as well.

Brooks



--
Tom Schoene Replace "invalid" with "net" to e-mail
"If brave men and women never died, there would be nothing
special about bravery." -- Andy Rooney (attributed)

Thomas Schoene wrote:

I just wanted to start a new thread specifically to look at the new aircraft
the Army is talking about buying instead of the Comanche, and see what
options there are available. As I read the briefings, there are basically
three new manned platforms. I doubt there is funding for new designs in any
of these roles. While it is really premature to say too much, with no
actual performance requirements set, I'm curious what options folks see for
each.

1) Armed Reconnaissance Helicopter (368 to be bought).

Could this be a Sikorsky H-76?

The USCG is using A-109s for their armed helicopter role; is this an option?

Probably not. I'd think an MD-5xx could be in the running, if they go OTS.

2) Light Utility Helicopter (303 to be bought)

I know the Bell 412 has been mentioned.

AB-139, Bell 430, maybe something from EC (Suuurre). Also the S-76, or the 430
for the recon mission. Kind of depends just where they draw the line at
"Light".


Might the Marine Corps UH-1Y also be a candidate? (Is this Huey II?)

3) C-XX Intra-Theater Lift (25 to be bought)

Presumably C-27J is the frontrunner. What other options are there?

CASA C-295. Unlikely, given the C-27J's engine/cockpit commonality with the
C-130J. The C-295 is smaller, slower and less powerful, but cheaper.

Guy

Guy Alcala wrote:
Thomas Schoene wrote:

I just wanted to start a new thread specifically
to look at the new aircraft
the Army is talking about buying instead of
the Comanche, and see what
options there are available. As I read the
briefings, there are basically
three new manned platforms. I doubt there
is funding for new designs in any
of these roles. While it is really premature
to say too much, with no
actual performance requirements set, I'm curious
what options folks see for
each.

1) Armed Reconnaissance Helicopter (368 to
be bought).

Could this be a Sikorsky H-76?

The USCG is using A-109s for their armed helicopter
role; is this an option?

Probably not. I'd think an MD-5xx could be
in the running, if they go OTS.

2) Light Utility Helicopter (303 to be bought)

I know the Bell 412 has been mentioned.

AB-139, Bell 430, maybe something from EC (Suuurre).
Also the S-76, or the 430
for the recon mission. Kind of depends just
where they draw the line at
"Light".


Might the Marine Corps UH-1Y also be a candidate?
(Is this Huey II?)

3) C-XX Intra-Theater Lift (25 to be bought)

Presumably C-27J is the frontrunner. What
other options are there?

CASA C-295. Unlikely, given the C-27J's engine/cockpit
commonality with the
C-130J. The C-295 is smaller, slower and less
powerful, but cheaper.

Guy

Problem with foreign-built aircraft or helos for the U.S. military: the
NIH syndrome. Congress will make sure the military buys American unless there
is no other option.

Posted via www.My-Newsgroups.com - web to news gateway for usenet access!

"Matt Wiser" wrote in message
news:403e054f$1@bg2....

Guy Alcala wrote:
Thomas Schoene wrote:

I just wanted to start a new thread specifically
to look at the new aircraft
the Army is talking about buying instead of
the Comanche, and see what
options there are available. As I read the
briefings, there are basically
three new manned platforms. I doubt there
is funding for new designs in any
of these roles. While it is really premature
to say too much, with no
actual performance requirements set, I'm curious
what options folks see for
each.

1) Armed Reconnaissance Helicopter (368 to
be bought).

Could this be a Sikorsky H-76?

The USCG is using A-109s for their armed helicopter
role; is this an option?

Probably not. I'd think an MD-5xx could be
in the running, if they go OTS.

2) Light Utility Helicopter (303 to be bought)

I know the Bell 412 has been mentioned.

AB-139, Bell 430, maybe something from EC (Suuurre).
Also the S-76, or the 430
for the recon mission. Kind of depends just
where they draw the line at
"Light".


Might the Marine Corps UH-1Y also be a candidate?
(Is this Huey II?)

3) C-XX Intra-Theater Lift (25 to be bought)

Presumably C-27J is the frontrunner. What
other options are there?

CASA C-295. Unlikely, given the C-27J's engine/cockpit
commonality with the
C-130J. The C-295 is smaller, slower and less
powerful, but cheaper.

Guy

Problem with foreign-built aircraft or helos for the U.S. military: the
NIH syndrome. Congress will make sure the military buys American unless
there
is no other option.

History does not support that allegation. How many HH-65 Dauphins does the
USCG operate? How many Falcon's does the USCG operate? How many A-109's do
they operate? How many Shorts C-23's does the ARNG operate? What is the
original source for both the T-6 and T-45 (and before you get all
wishy-washy on those two programs because they were actually manufactured
here in the US, realize that is the way many nations operate--most of the
NATO F-16's were build in Europe, F-16's are being bult in the ROK, and
Japan manufactured its F-15J's)? The only one of these programs that I can
see where there was really "no other option" was the C-23 buy.

Brooks