report runway incursion non-towered airport?

"Stefan" wrote in message
...
Dave Stadt wrote:

I suspect most pilots don't know separation is not
provided in Class D.

I've always thought that you must pass a written to get your
certificate? Or do most pilots just learn the answers by heart without
understanding them?

Stefan

You must pass a written test but there is no requirement to pass with a
perfect score or to remember any of it for any length of time. It is also
not the kind of thing I have ever been asked during a BFR.

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote:
When you've got a guy directing traffic who has a faulty mental picture
of
the traffic in the airspace -- often through no fault of his own --
you've
got a recipe for trouble.


Agreed. If pilots reported their positions accurately the controller
wouldn't *think* he knew where they were. He'd know.

In my experience, the controllers at BFM tower have always refused to offer
traffic avoidance instructions unless they have all the relevant aircraft in
sight. They *might* pass along position reports, but that's it.

Now that they have DBRITE, they know where the aircraft really are, but I
haven't detected any change in the way they handle airplanes they're talking
to.
--
Dan
C-172RG at BFM

"Jay Honeck" wrote in message
news:HJFUd.12332$r55.8014@attbi_s52...
You really should be scared of class D airports.

Totally agree. I'll take uncontrolled over non-radar Class Delta, any
day.

Really? All that money spent on controllers is wasted?

At least in class D, everyone is *supposed* to be on the radio, although
of course vigilance is always necessary. I think what you are really
saying is that danger goes up as the traffic density increases, and class D
tends to be busier than uncontrolled fields. I'd take a class D early in the
morning when no one is around any day!

Tony (not the same person as Avweb reported today as facing the clink
for falsifying his pilot certificate application!)

"Stefan" wrote:
I suspect most pilots don't know separation is not
provided in Class D.

I've always thought that you must pass a written to get your
certificate? Or do most pilots just learn the answers by heart without
understanding them?

The list of things I didn't know about flying when I got my private ticket
would have filled a lot of exam books.

Eight years and nearly 1,000 hours later, I suspect the list is still quite
long.
--
Dan
C-172RG at BFM

"Tony Cox" wrote in message
ink.net...
"Jay Honeck" wrote in message
news:HJFUd.12332$r55.8014@attbi_s52...
You really should be scared of class D airports.

Totally agree. I'll take uncontrolled over non-radar Class Delta, any
day.

Really? All that money spent on controllers is wasted?

In some cases, yes.

At least in class D, everyone is *supposed* to be on the radio, although
of course vigilance is always necessary. I think what you are really
saying is that danger goes up as the traffic density increases, and class
D
tends to be busier than uncontrolled fields. I'd take a class D early in
the
morning when no one is around any day!

The non towered airport I fly out of (home base for 350 + aircraft)is busier
than most Class D airports, has 6 runways with 3 frequently in use at one
time, has a ton of NORDO aircraft and is much better behaved than a lot of
class D airports I have been to. Most close call or worse horror stories I
have experienced and heard involved someone in a tower with a radio and no
radar.

Tony (not the same person as Avweb reported today as facing the clink
for falsifying his pilot certificate application!)

In a word, Yes.

Not very long ago I witnessed a near miss. I filed a complaint with the
FAA annonymously via the internet. They called the airport to see who
was flying at the time. Well, since it happened a hour after the admin
building closed... The FAA tends to get lazy at times.

Meanwhile, had the two aircraft collided, I would have possibly been
immolated in my car. There was a plane in the process of departing and
I thought he was trying to be cute the way he began a turn as soon as
he rotated (get some Navy types now and then). Then I noticed another
a/c making a hard right turn, right over me who had been on final. Had
they collided, I was close enough, on the high-way that runs past the
end of the runway, to have been part of the ensuing gas shower and
fire.

I have had similar things happen with biz jets as you have just
mentioned. They get so busy with all their stuff that they forget there
are others getting clearances as well. Seems that because of a biz jet
that was in a hurry, I wound up with having to do an intersection
departure to keep approach happy (we were at a non-towered field with
an RCO). Why? because the biz jet cut me off as I was taxiing to the
runway!

So yes, I would at least file an ASRA about it.

Later,
Steve.T
PP ASEL/Instrument

"Stefan" wrote in message
...

I remember my first landing at a controlled airport with heavy iron.
(Got my primary training at a small grass strip.) I was told by the
tower to continue my approach. The runway was empty. But the very moment
I turned base to final, which is about 1/2 mile from the threshold at
that airport (Zürich), I saw to my surprize a 737 rolling onto the
runway and lining up, obviously cleared by the tower to do so. When I
was about 1/4 mile out, I got uneasy and called the tower, asking what
to do. "Continue approach, the airliner will depart." And so it did.
Plenty of room, a non event.

Stefan

Hi Stefan. I've never piloted heavy iron, so feel free to adjust the
numbers. Let's say you were 1/4 mile out travelling at 120 knots. If my
math is right, that's about 7.5 seconds to a collision. That's barely
enough time to call the tower and get a response. I would have considered
going around. I understand going around with a heavy is a big deal. Last
year we had 30G50 at our local class D and I saw a 737 go around because it
couldn't hit a 6500 x 150 ft. (1996 x 46 m) runway.

"Dave Stadt" wrote in message
. com...

"Tony Cox" wrote in message
ink.net...

At least in class D, everyone is *supposed* to be on the radio, although
of course vigilance is always necessary. I think what you are really
saying is that danger goes up as the traffic density increases, and
class
D
tends to be busier than uncontrolled fields. I'd take a class D early in
the
morning when no one is around any day!

The non towered airport I fly out of (home base for 350 + aircraft)is
busier
than most Class D airports, has 6 runways with 3 frequently in use at one
time, has a ton of NORDO aircraft and is much better behaved than a lot of
class D airports I have been to. Most close call or worse horror stories
I
have experienced and heard involved someone in a tower with a radio and no
radar.

Interesting, isn't it? On the one hand, being "uncontrolled"
will hopefully put the fear of God into pilots so they are more
vigilant (yes, I know that being "controlled" shouldn't make a
difference). On the other, I *suspect* that uncontrolled fields
tend to attract the less active pilots, more intimidated by radio
work, who might not be as "on the ball" as they should be.

It'd be interesting to see a comparison of mid-airs, corrected
for traffic density. I suspect the correction for traffic density
would be non-trivial.

"Stefan" wrote in message
...

I've always thought that you must pass a written to get your
certificate? Or do most pilots just learn the answers by heart without
understanding them?

Stefan

It's one thing to know the anwsers to an exam and another thing to apply
this knowledge. This was brought home to me by an experience about 2 weeks
after I got my ticket. I was doing touch and goes at my home field and ATC
cleared a plane for takeoff on a crossing runway; the timing was such that
our paths would have crossed as I was on downwind for my runway. Now I knew
that ATC is not responsible for separation of VFR aircraft in class D, but
this brought home to me that ATC could clear aircraft on a midair collision
course and bear no responsibility should there be an accident. By the way,
I made the wrong decision and continued the pattern; we saw each other in
time to avoid a collision. The right move would have been to ask for the
opposite pattern for that "go" (read "inform ATC that I intended to fly the
opposite pattern" ) or extend downwind until the other aircraft departed.

"Dave Stadt" writes:

"Peter R." wrote in message
...
Perhaps some pilots, thinking ATC has a complete handle on traffic, might
let their "see and avoid" guard down a little when flying into a towered
airport.

Many totally quit looking once they start talking to the tower. It's a
horrible mistake and I suspect most pilots don't know separation is not
provided in Class D.

I similarly suspect many pilots don't know vfr/vfr separation isn't provided in
Class C either.

Dan.