When to acknowledge ATC

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message
.net...
What difference did it make if he was IFR or VFR? He just said he didn't
hear the quoted phraseology while he was on the frequency on the SFO Class
B airspace.

Whatever. Suffice to say, I don't read Hamish's post the same way you do.
Now you're just trying to cover up the fact that you failed to correctly
read my own post too.

Figures...

"Peter Duniho" wrote in message
...

Whatever. Suffice to say, I don't read Hamish's post the same way you do.
Now you're just trying to cover up the fact that you failed to correctly
read my own post too.

Figures...

The fact is you misread Hamish's post and your ego won't let you admit it.

"Gene Kearns" wrote in message
...

Let me jump in here with a confused expression.....

When they first created the alphabetic areas, I was taught that Class
B airspace required a specific clearance prior to entrance..... thus,
something like "N12345 cleared to enter Class B airspace" as opposed
to just "establishing" two-way communications as required in Class
C.... and just barging in.


That is correct and I don't believe anyone in this thread said differently.



As for readbacks... As for VFR, I'd have to admit that I'm really not
clear on the absolute requirements, though I tend to read back
everything that shouldn't be obvious or ambiguous....


There is no regulatory requirement for pilots to read back any clearance.
There is an operational requirement for controllers to obtain a readback of
an instruction to hold short.



So, from a controller's perspective, (1) what sort of "Clearance" into
Class B should I expect to be required and (2) what do you guys prefer
to be read back?


(1) The pilot must receive an ATC clearance prior to operating an aircraft
in Class B airspace. That's the requirement per the FARs. It can be an IFR
clearance, a clearance for a practice instrument approach while operating
VFR, or an explicit clearance to enter Class B airspace.

(2) I like to hear readbacks of control items; routes, altitudes, headings,
etc., but I don't solicit them. Except for hold short instructions, of
course.

"A Guy Called Tyketto" wrote in message
. ..

Yeah.. I've learned not to be assertive around you.


If you're going to be assertive it's a good idea to make sure you're right.



Thanks for making someone who is wanting to put his heart into this career
feel
diswayed.


Diswayed?



Perhaps I'll be one less controller to replace you from
working harder than you should, or even better, thanks for putting more
burden on yourself.


I'm irreplaceable anyway.



Don't complain if the government requires you to
stay on until you're 80, because with that attitude of yours, no-one
will love working under you. Check yourself.


You think I have an attitude problem? Which of us refused to listen to
reason?

"A Guy Called Tyketto" wrote in message
. ..

I agree. I did take comments here as insulting. But when you
have someone here telling you that you're ignorant, it's rather hard
not to take that as insulting. Double that coming from a controller.


The only messages in this thread that contain the word "insulting" are your
message above and the responses to it.



It really makes you want to rethink entering the field if a potential
coworker, who should be helping you on it (albeit, he is helping) while
not berating you with the next word out of his mouth.


I don't recall you being berated in this thread by anyone. What are you
referring to?



I admitted that I was wrong, and that you're right, the .65P doesn't
mandate reading back
clearances.


Your admission of error was a long time coming. Several people told you you
were wrong and explained why you were wrong and through it all you insisted
you were right.



But on the other hand, I deserve more respect than being
insulted, let alone more respect for admitting that I was wrong.


Respect is earned, nobody insulted you.

In article ,
"Peter Duniho" wrote:

"Hamish Reid" wrote in message
...
[...]
There's your clearance out of Bravo. If you're VFR, you'll hear
'Cleared into Class Bravo Airspace'. That's ATC regulations there, and
ATC are to adhere to that.

Funny. I flew KOAK / KMRY yesterday IFR on a routing that took me deep
into KSFO's Class B airspace and never *once* heard that magic phrase
"Cleared into Class Bravo..."

Not that the previous poster is correct in what he says, but how does your
IFR flight relate to his claim regarding VFR flight?

You snipped the part where he claimed that one had to hear the magic
phrase under all circumstances. I pointed out that that simply wasn't
true.

("Thank you. This is EXACTLY what I've been trying to get at all
along in this thread. You *MUST* hear 'Cleared into Class Bravo
Airspace' to be allowed to enter Bravo airspace. That is your clearance
into it. Even the FARs state it:"

Which was followed up by:

The regulation says the operator must receive an ATC clearance, it does not
state he *MUST* hear 'Cleared into Class Bravo Airspace' to be allowed to
enter Bravo airspace.

Which was illustrated by my posting.

Hamish

Antoñio wrote:

I did some training and, vol la! I found out that there really was never
anything wrong with my hearing in the first place! I just wasn't paying
attention.

Tests show that I have lost the higher frequencies in both ears. I also have a
condition (I don't remember the name) which causes distant conversations (say,
20 feet away) to sound about as loud as the person across the table from me.
That doesn't interfere with radio work, of course, but it makes it very
difficult for me to converse in a public place or noisy party. I do a lot of lip
reading.

I can't do that over the radio, and NAV/COMs don't have treble and bass
controls. Thankfully, there are very few controllers with soprano voices.

And it's not a disorder to prefer to be doing something else than concentrating
on listening for your N-number in the static and other conversation.

George Patterson
There's plenty of room for all of God's creatures. Right next to the
mashed potatoes.

In article ,
A Guy Called Tyketto wrote:

Hamish Reid wrote:

This thread has certainly had a sort of morbid entertainment value
watching you go up against Steven M, an experienced controller and pilot
-- basically, you seem to be a little out of your depth here...

Fine then, everyone. You're all right, I'm wrong. You don't
need to readback clearances. Everybody happy now?

This is Usenet. The idea of everybody here being happy is kinda funny...
*someone* will find fault with your new position, now :-).

I tried to respond with something I was taught by my
instructors. Now I know what I was told was wrong. I'll go crawl back
into my hole, and shut up because I stood up for what I had learned.
Now that I'm wrong, I'll be quiet.

Well, don't do *that*.... Basically, if all you'd done was "respond with
something I was taught by my instructors", and then thought a little and
researched a lot about the issue when virtually everyone here pointed
out you were wrong (and why), probably none of this would have happened.
But you started questioning people's credentials and giving out abuse --
and ended up maybe getting rather more than you gave, for sure, but your
attitude really didn't help. And it probably won't help with the ATC
job, either....

Hamish

"Antoñio" wrote

George,

From what you describe above I wonder if you actually may have some
form of Attention Deficit Disorder (ADD).(?) I myself had similar
attention type problems that I assumed were due to my ears fading as a
result of all the rock n' roll concerts, guns, getting older, loud women
I've dated(ha!), and other noise that inundated my ears as a younger man.

I discovered just a few years ago that the problems were not that I
*couldn't* hear but that I *didn't* hear because my brain did not kick
in immediately when being addressed. I would constantly miss the
beginning of a conversation and sometimes drift off in the middle of it.
I could not concentrate on anything that was mundane, repetitious, or
"colorless" regardless of how important it was to me. I was often
distracted away by my own thoughts from a conversation or the task at
hand.

What was that? I was reading it, but I lost track of it somewhere. Who
were you talking to, anyway? ;-)
--
Jim in NC

"Newps" wrote in message
...

Wrong, it most certainly does. If a handoff is not completed for any
reason that is an ATC error. You have no way of knowing where the
airspace boundaries are.

Quite; your clearance was issued when you took off (shortly before, or
shortly after if you filed enroute).