ADS-B Update

On Thursday, December 14, 2017 at 10:18:47 PM UTC-8, 2G wrote:
On Thursday, December 14, 2017 at 9:54:54 PM UTC-8, Darryl Ramm wrote:
On Thursday, December 14, 2017 at 9:39:35 PM UTC-8, 2G wrote:
On Thursday, December 14, 2017 at 8:30:06 PM UTC-8, Darryl Ramm wrote:
On Thursday, December 14, 2017 at 7:20:02 PM UTC-8, jfitch wrote:

OK, so ADS-B information is transmitted in the blind?

Yep. Completely blind/automatic. That is what the A in ADS-B stands for.

Automatic Dependent Surveillance - Broadcast

Dependent meaning GNSS/GPS.

ADS-B Out broadcasts data messages several times per second completely autonomously, with some pseudorandom time dither to avoid correlated collisions. The mix is a bit complex with ID, status, position and velocity messages broadcast at different rates. Position and velocity are twice per second.

The ADS-B Out side of things make no response to any interrogation and cannot tell if anything is listening. 1090ES Out systems are in practice parts of Mode S transponders and so have a whole slew of other things they do including other automatic broadcasts (like acquisition squitters) and multiple different interrogation types and on high-end transponder even air-air data link for TCAS resolution coordination, etc.. Way more complex than legacy Mode A/C transponders.... and so complex you can see why the expectation back in the early days of ADS-B planning seemed to be that Mode S transponder costs were going to remain high, and why UAT might be a good idea.... well no because FPGAs and fast microcontrollers happened and turned transponder hardware into a software problem...

One more thing: if you get the TN72 you will also have to get a TSO'd antenna. So what, you say. Well the antenna costs as much as the TN72.

Tom

I would hope not, the thing is ugly as hell. If your glider is experimental there is no way I'd expect folks to install that, if certified ask your A&P IA what they want to see to sign off on a minor alteration to do a TABS install.

Hoping isn't a part of an inspection: if it isn't TSO'd how can it be signed off by an IA?

Hoping as in whoever does an install/sign off can work out the minimal work/correct thing to do for that particular install. That is their job.

There are lots of non-TSO equipment installed in certified gliders all the time. It is up to the A&P IA to determine if where needed the installation meets the performance requirements, and a TSO is one way of doing that. Trig also publish the key relevant performance spec of that antenna making it pretty easy to select alternate choices. But I am not an A&P IA and even if I was I am not the A&P IA doing the install in your particular glider.

I am not going to go down this rat hole further, if you want to do an install in a certified glider you need an A&P IA to sign off on that. If you want to move forward go and start that discussion with that person, if they are clear then book shop time, order the parts, and get go. If they get stuck or need contacts at Trig or the FAA I'm happy to help them, or SSA folks likely can as well (or better). One thing owners should avoid doing is contacting FSDO staff and asking them about ADS-B installs. Leave those discussions if needed at all to a trusted A&P IA who will actually be signing off on the install.

A small point of clarification that I've not seen mentioned elsewhere.

Mid Continent Instruments and Avionics told me that the software in the panel mounted 'head unit' TC20 also needs to be updated.

Your transponder TT21 or TT22 is in the gold box. The TC20 is the black thing with buttons and a screen that mounts in your panel. You need to ship both the gold box and the black panel thing to Mid Continent.

My Avionics shop is fully booked doing ADSB installs. But my glider is experimental, so they're happy for me to do all the leg work, get the software updated, get the antenna and TN72 mounted in the tight space, make power and interconnections between the boxes and configure the software. Richard at Craggy Aero provided a complete cable harness, so the install is pretty easy.

Once it is all set, I can trailer the glider to the Avionics appointment (90 minute drive) and wait while they check the installation and make the log book entries. Should take about one hour of their time. I'll get the two-year check transponder check on the same road trip.

A close encounter with a power plane last fall encouraged me to upgrade the transponder that came with the glider to TABS.

On Saturday, December 16, 2017 at 5:54:28 PM UTC-8, son_of_flubber wrote:
A small point of clarification that I've not seen mentioned elsewhere.

Mid Continent Instruments and Avionics told me that the software in the panel mounted 'head unit' TC20 also needs to be updated.

Your transponder TT21 or TT22 is in the gold box. The TC20 is the black thing with buttons and a screen that mounts in your panel. You need to ship both the gold box and the black panel thing to Mid Continent.

My Avionics shop is fully booked doing ADSB installs. But my glider is experimental, so they're happy for me to do all the leg work, get the software updated, get the antenna and TN72 mounted in the tight space, make power and interconnections between the boxes and configure the software. Richard at Craggy Aero provided a complete cable harness, so the install is pretty easy.

Once it is all set, I can trailer the glider to the Avionics appointment (90 minute drive) and wait while they check the installation and make the log book entries. Should take about one hour of their time. I'll get the two-year check transponder check on the same road trip.

A close encounter with a power plane last fall encouraged me to upgrade the transponder that came with the glider to TABS.

Thanks Flub,

That's correct. I just received the updated TC20 control head and TT22 (formerly TT21) transponder box back from Mid Continent. Everything was very professionally done and all certification documents included. Now installing in an experimental category glider with the TN72 box and TA70 antenna. This should provide full 2020 compliance. Note: certificated gliders will require the TN70 unit instead of TN72.

Cheers,
Craig
7Q

Hi,

I have added Goddard wiring harnesses for the TN70 and TN72 to my web site. There are complete harnesses for new installations - with connections for the TT22, TC20 display head, and TN70 or TN72.

There are also new wiring harnesses that make it easy to add a TN70 or TN72 GPS to an existing TT22 transponder installation. The new wiring harness is designed to be inserted between the TT22 and the existing TT22 wiring harness. It has a DB-25m connector for connection to the TT22, a DB-25f connector for connection to the existing TT22 wiring harness, and DB-25f for connection to the TN70 GPS or DB-9f connector for connection to a TN72.

I have also added antenna cables for connecting a TN70 or TN72 to a TA70 GPS antenna.

Details are available on my Trig web page:
http://cumulus-soaring.com/trig.htm

Good Soaring,

Paul Remde
Cumulus Soaring, Inc.
____________________________________________

On Tuesday, December 12, 2017 at 3:48:05 AM UTC-6, Darryl Ramm wrote:
It must be time for some more ADS-B posts, either that or we can talk about PW5 :-)

With the ~$350 street price Trig TN72 GPS source now available in the USA I wanted to revisit my understanding of the situation with ADS-B Out in gliders. I wrote a forum post for local Northern California pilots but it probably helps lots of other folks in the USA. See https://www.williamssoaring..com/new...er-this-Winter

---

And specifically I want to correct some doubt/misinformation I've helped spread here before about the Trig TN72 GPS source when it was first announced. The TN72 is either (depending on how it is configured in the paired transponder) a:

1. TABS/TSO-C199 GPS source (with SIL=1)

*or*

2. A "meets performance requirement of TSO-C145c" GPS source (language I prefer, although Trig may say it differently) (with SIL=3)

(OK the TN72 can also do plain NMEA (with SIL=0), but that's not intersting here).

A little more details and the implications of this is described in post linked to above.

It would be great for folks doing 1090ES Out installs to share their experiences. Here, or contact me directly,

I am happy to try to answer questions.

I'm also planning to give a few talks on ADS-B (and FLARM and Transponders) over the next few months, certainly on the West Coast, details later.

Darryl

On Thursday, January 4, 2018 at 3:50:17 PM UTC-8, Paul Remde wrote:
Hi,

I have added Goddard wiring harnesses for the TN70 and TN72 to my web site. There are complete harnesses for new installations - with connections for the TT22, TC20 display head, and TN70 or TN72.

There are also new wiring harnesses that make it easy to add a TN70 or TN72 GPS to an existing TT22 transponder installation. The new wiring harness is designed to be inserted between the TT22 and the existing TT22 wiring harness. It has a DB-25m connector for connection to the TT22, a DB-25f connector for connection to the existing TT22 wiring harness, and DB-25f for connection to the TN70 GPS or DB-9f connector for connection to a TN72.

I have also added antenna cables for connecting a TN70 or TN72 to a TA70 GPS antenna.

Details are available on my Trig web page:
http://cumulus-soaring.com/trig.htm

Good Soaring,

Paul Remde
Cumulus Soaring, Inc.
____________________________________________

On Tuesday, December 12, 2017 at 3:48:05 AM UTC-6, Darryl Ramm wrote:
It must be time for some more ADS-B posts, either that or we can talk about PW5 :-)

With the ~$350 street price Trig TN72 GPS source now available in the USA I wanted to revisit my understanding of the situation with ADS-B Out in gliders. I wrote a forum post for local Northern California pilots but it probably helps lots of other folks in the USA. See https://www.williamssoaring.com/news...er-this-Winter

---

And specifically I want to correct some doubt/misinformation I've helped spread here before about the Trig TN72 GPS source when it was first announced. The TN72 is either (depending on how it is configured in the paired transponder) a:

1. TABS/TSO-C199 GPS source (with SIL=1)

*or*

2. A "meets performance requirement of TSO-C145c" GPS source (language I prefer, although Trig may say it differently) (with SIL=3)

(OK the TN72 can also do plain NMEA (with SIL=0), but that's not intersting here).

A little more details and the implications of this is described in post linked to above.

It would be great for folks doing 1090ES Out installs to share their experiences. Here, or contact me directly,

I am happy to try to answer questions.

I'm also planning to give a few talks on ADS-B (and FLARM and Transponders) over the next few months, certainly on the West Coast, details later.

Darryl

A big issue for me is that installing a TN72 and, if necessary, an appropriate transponder will not make you ADS-B Out compliant; it only provides compliance with TABS. TABS gives you the ability to transmit position data to ATC and other aircraft, which is a good thing. But it will not give you access to control zones requiring ADS-B Out, basically any control zone requiring Mode C now. To comply with ADS-B Out you would need the TN70, which is a much larger (and more expensive) unit than the TN72. I don't mind the cost, but the size is a killer. I am inclined to wait and see if the FAA allows TABS aircraft into the ADS-B zones in two years. Of course, if you never intend to fly in these areas you don't care. Personally the only areas of any interest to me is Reno and Spokane.

Tom

On Thursday, January 4, 2018 at 4:26:05 PM UTC-8, 2G wrote:
On Thursday, January 4, 2018 at 3:50:17 PM UTC-8, Paul Remde wrote:
Hi,

I have added Goddard wiring harnesses for the TN70 and TN72 to my web site. There are complete harnesses for new installations - with connections for the TT22, TC20 display head, and TN70 or TN72.

There are also new wiring harnesses that make it easy to add a TN70 or TN72 GPS to an existing TT22 transponder installation. The new wiring harness is designed to be inserted between the TT22 and the existing TT22 wiring harness. It has a DB-25m connector for connection to the TT22, a DB-25f connector for connection to the existing TT22 wiring harness, and DB-25f for connection to the TN70 GPS or DB-9f connector for connection to a TN72.

I have also added antenna cables for connecting a TN70 or TN72 to a TA70 GPS antenna.

Details are available on my Trig web page:
http://cumulus-soaring.com/trig.htm

Good Soaring,

Paul Remde
Cumulus Soaring, Inc.
____________________________________________

On Tuesday, December 12, 2017 at 3:48:05 AM UTC-6, Darryl Ramm wrote:
It must be time for some more ADS-B posts, either that or we can talk about PW5 :-)

With the ~$350 street price Trig TN72 GPS source now available in the USA I wanted to revisit my understanding of the situation with ADS-B Out in gliders. I wrote a forum post for local Northern California pilots but it probably helps lots of other folks in the USA. See https://www.williamssoaring.com/news...er-this-Winter

---

And specifically I want to correct some doubt/misinformation I've helped spread here before about the Trig TN72 GPS source when it was first announced. The TN72 is either (depending on how it is configured in the paired transponder) a:

1. TABS/TSO-C199 GPS source (with SIL=1)

*or*

2. A "meets performance requirement of TSO-C145c" GPS source (language I prefer, although Trig may say it differently) (with SIL=3)

(OK the TN72 can also do plain NMEA (with SIL=0), but that's not intersting here).

A little more details and the implications of this is described in post linked to above.

It would be great for folks doing 1090ES Out installs to share their experiences. Here, or contact me directly,

I am happy to try to answer questions.

I'm also planning to give a few talks on ADS-B (and FLARM and Transponders) over the next few months, certainly on the West Coast, details later..

Darryl

A big issue for me is that installing a TN72 and, if necessary, an appropriate transponder will not make you ADS-B Out compliant; it only provides compliance with TABS. TABS gives you the ability to transmit position data to ATC and other aircraft, which is a good thing. But it will not give you access to control zones requiring ADS-B Out, basically any control zone requiring Mode C now. To comply with ADS-B Out you would need the TN70, which is a much larger (and more expensive) unit than the TN72. I don't mind the cost, but the size is a killer. I am inclined to wait and see if the FAA allows TABS aircraft into the ADS-B zones in two years. Of course, if you never intend to fly in these areas you don't care. Personally the only areas of any interest to me is Reno and Spokane.

Tom

Craggy Aero has been selling the cables for the TT22 with the GPS in and TIS out for several years. Coax Cables and cables for the TN72 and TN70 are also available.

A good explanation the what is required for 2020 on this link.

http://www.craggyaero.com/trig.htm

Richard
www.craggyaero.com

That's not quite correct, well not for experimental aircraft. I realize your ASH26E is type certified, but lets not make hard statements that don't apply to all cases. I tried to cover the full situation in the link that started this thread.

In an experimental glider you can use a TN72 to meet full 2020 Compliance if you choose to, that's the "SIL=3" install documented in the TN72 installation guide. For type certified gliders an actual TSO-C145c GPS source is required like the TN70.



l On Thursday, January 4, 2018 at 4:26:05 PM UTC-8, 2G wrote:
On Thursday, January 4, 2018 at 3:50:17 PM UTC-8, Paul Remde wrote:
Hi,

I have added Goddard wiring harnesses for the TN70 and TN72 to my web site. There are complete harnesses for new installations - with connections for the TT22, TC20 display head, and TN70 or TN72.

There are also new wiring harnesses that make it easy to add a TN70 or TN72 GPS to an existing TT22 transponder installation. The new wiring harness is designed to be inserted between the TT22 and the existing TT22 wiring harness. It has a DB-25m connector for connection to the TT22, a DB-25f connector for connection to the existing TT22 wiring harness, and DB-25f for connection to the TN70 GPS or DB-9f connector for connection to a TN72.

I have also added antenna cables for connecting a TN70 or TN72 to a TA70 GPS antenna.

Details are available on my Trig web page:
http://cumulus-soaring.com/trig.htm

Good Soaring,

Paul Remde
Cumulus Soaring, Inc.
____________________________________________

On Tuesday, December 12, 2017 at 3:48:05 AM UTC-6, Darryl Ramm wrote:
It must be time for some more ADS-B posts, either that or we can talk about PW5 :-)

With the ~$350 street price Trig TN72 GPS source now available in the USA I wanted to revisit my understanding of the situation with ADS-B Out in gliders. I wrote a forum post for local Northern California pilots but it probably helps lots of other folks in the USA. See https://www.williamssoaring.com/news...er-this-Winter

---

And specifically I want to correct some doubt/misinformation I've helped spread here before about the Trig TN72 GPS source when it was first announced. The TN72 is either (depending on how it is configured in the paired transponder) a:

1. TABS/TSO-C199 GPS source (with SIL=1)

*or*

2. A "meets performance requirement of TSO-C145c" GPS source (language I prefer, although Trig may say it differently) (with SIL=3)

(OK the TN72 can also do plain NMEA (with SIL=0), but that's not intersting here).

A little more details and the implications of this is described in post linked to above.

It would be great for folks doing 1090ES Out installs to share their experiences. Here, or contact me directly,

I am happy to try to answer questions.

I'm also planning to give a few talks on ADS-B (and FLARM and Transponders) over the next few months, certainly on the West Coast, details later..

Darryl

A big issue for me is that installing a TN72 and, if necessary, an appropriate transponder will not make you ADS-B Out compliant; it only provides compliance with TABS. TABS gives you the ability to transmit position data to ATC and other aircraft, which is a good thing. But it will not give you access to control zones requiring ADS-B Out, basically any control zone requiring Mode C now. To comply with ADS-B Out you would need the TN70, which is a much larger (and more expensive) unit than the TN72. I don't mind the cost, but the size is a killer. I am inclined to wait and see if the FAA allows TABS aircraft into the ADS-B zones in two years. Of course, if you never intend to fly in these areas you don't care. Personally the only areas of any interest to me is Reno and Spokane.

Tom

On Thursday, January 4, 2018 at 10:28:50 PM UTC-7, Darryl Ramm wrote:

In an experimental glider you can use a TN72 to meet full 2020 Compliance if you choose to, that's the "SIL=3" install documented in the TN72 installation guide. For type certified gliders an actual TSO-C145c GPS source is required like the TN70.


Ok, so where does that leave a glider with an Experimental glider with a Trig 21?

I think I can reasonably avoid places like Reno and Spokane for now, just want other aircraft to see me.

On Friday, January 5, 2018 at 6:44:26 AM UTC-8, Jeff Morgan wrote:
On Thursday, January 4, 2018 at 10:28:50 PM UTC-7, Darryl Ramm wrote:

In an experimental glider you can use a TN72 to meet full 2020 Compliance if you choose to, that's the "SIL=3" install documented in the TN72 installation guide. For type certified gliders an actual TSO-C145c GPS source is required like the TN70.


Ok, so where does that leave a glider with an Experimental glider with a Trig 21?

I think I can reasonably avoid places like Reno and Spokane for now, just want other aircraft to see me.

The top link in this thread is not clear in that?

On Friday, January 5, 2018 at 11:38:41 PM UTC-7, Darryl Ramm wrote:
On Friday, January 5, 2018 at 6:44:26 AM UTC-8, Jeff Morgan wrote:
On Thursday, January 4, 2018 at 10:28:50 PM UTC-7, Darryl Ramm wrote:

In an experimental glider you can use a TN72 to meet full 2020 Compliance if you choose to, that's the "SIL=3" install documented in the TN72 installation guide. For type certified gliders an actual TSO-C145c GPS source is required like the TN70.


Ok, so where does that leave a glider with an Experimental glider with a Trig 21?

I think I can reasonably avoid places like Reno and Spokane for now, just want other aircraft to see me.

The top link in this thread is not clear in that?