Did the Germans have the Norden bombsight?

There is no doubt that the germans were quite
capable of producing optics

What's mo
I wonder if anybody can match the Carl Zeiss, Jena plant?

On Wed, 28 Apr 2004 23:52:59 +0100, Jim Doyle wrote:

"robert arndt" wrote in message
om...
The German Lofte 7 bombsight was developed by people
who had access to the data from Norden and while
not a copy of the Norden design its likely they
learned a lot from it.

http://www.luftarchiv.info/bordgerate/optisch.htm

Not being able to read German - could someone please explain the principal
workings of the gunsight in the first diagram? (The two concentric circles
and cross as rear sight, with vane-looking gizmo as foresight - attached to
the MG15).

The caption for the illustrations doesn't say anything about how the sight
is supposed to work. My translation of the caption is:

Left: Example sight picture for the flexible-mount aircraft machine
gun with wind vane bead and ring sight. Right: Flexible-mount MG15
with wind vane bead and ring sight.

The caption above the illustrations just says "Sighting devices for
on-board weapons."

I dunno -- I guess the front bead is supposed to move around the
pivot attached to the gun barrel according to the relative wind.
Maybe it's supposed to help the gunner compensate for windage when
shooting to either side? I assume the whole assembly would be aligned
with the gun barrel when aiming directly forward or aft.


ljd

In article , Krztalizer
writes

Does anybody know where these pickle barrels came from? Were they Lend
Lease? AFAIK we didn't make pickle barrels in the UK at that time, and
I'm not sure if we do now. You can't get the wood, you know

Of course, the Mosquito figured into all of this. Pickle barrels had been
coopered in the UK for many dozens of years in the run up to the "disagreement
among cousins" (as Goebbels described the conflict between Britain and
Germany). During that rather spirited disagreement, the de Havilland company
created the aerial equivelent of a grand piano in its DH 98, and this new
wooden wonder required every barrel shaper, clog carver, and cabinet finisher
in the realm to bend their oars in production of the Mosquito.

But what of the pickle barrel? Production in the UK ceased abruptly with the
first order to DH - an immediate vaccum was created, a wartime critical
shortage in pickle barrels. Just another damned inconvenience of the war.
Even with the required coupons, there was simply no guarantee a proper pickle
barrel could be found.

The song 'Roll out the barrel' was thought by many researchers to be a
metaphor for the Great Lamentations that took place in the traditional
pickle barrel making towns of Lancashire throughout 1941.

Well, you all are familiar with the story by now. While touring the great
pickel barrel factories that once lined the Mississippi, Japanese
future-Admiral Isoroku Yamamoto could only marvel at America's pickle barrel
production capability. "We're doomed", he muttered. (In Japanese, of course.)
Later he was able to use his acquired knowledge - one captured JN 25 message,
decoded in the days prior to Pearl Harbor, included the exact locations of each
of the pickle barrels on board the Oklahoma and the Arizona - only luck and a
Seaman named Mojo Nixon kept the Nevada from suffering a similar fate; he is
widely credited with having moved the Nevada's pickle barrel to the dock
alongside the battleship, so he could polish it on the early morning of
December 7th, 19 Fo-tee-won. Tragically... well.. you know.

All of this is pickle barrel history, known by most school children.

But not as well documented as it should be. I suggest you undertake a
short monograph on the subject - perhaps Robert Bailey could do the
illustrations? 'Two Minutes to Tea Break' could show a team of barrel
makers clock-watching...

The mystery of the English wartime pickle barrels is solved by checking the
makers mark on the bottom of one of the few wartime survivors - on the Imperial
War Museum's pickle barrel, "Old Smellysides", all of the coopers signed their
names as it was the 5,000th pickle barrel to roll off the production line at
the Cape Girardeau plant. That makers mark, faded by decades of service and
overpolishing, is clearly the mark of Henry Ford. Perhaps most famous for his
innovation in pickle barrel production, he earned the nickname 'the American
Coopernicus'.

Ouch!

Yes, of course they were lend-lease. What a ridiculous thing to say.

No, not all - a point of clarification is required here. It is not
generally known that of the ten percent of conscripts who were diverted
to the coal mines by Earnest Bevin, a full five percent of these were in
turn diverted to the pickle barrel shadow factories. The lend-lease
barrels did of course far outnumber domestic production, the only issues
being the difficulty in cannibalising parts so that the Civilian Repair
Organisation could rebuild damaged ones. (The difference between the US
inch and the English inch made stave interchangeability difficult at
times.) And again, English hand-made vs US machine produced brought the
usual debates about whether the English staves exhibited a proper
hyperbolic profile...

v/r
Gordon
====(A+C====
USN SAR

An LZ is a place you want to land, not stay.

Cheers,

Dave

--
Dave Eadsforth

In article , Krztalizer
writes

Does anybody know where these pickle barrels came from? Were they Lend
Lease? AFAIK we didn't make pickle barrels in the UK at that time, and
I'm not sure if we do now. You can't get the wood, you know

Of course, the Mosquito figured into all of this. Pickle barrels had been
coopered in the UK for many dozens of years in the run up to the "disagreement
among cousins" (as Goebbels described the conflict between Britain and
Germany). During that rather spirited disagreement, the de Havilland company
created the aerial equivelent of a grand piano in its DH 98, and this new
wooden wonder required every barrel shaper, clog carver, and cabinet finisher
in the realm to bend their oars in production of the Mosquito.


What a load of balsa.

The aeronautical connection nearly ended in Bristol in the twenties. See
http://www.pfabristol.flyer.co.uk/december02.htm and look at the Type
72. If that's not a barrel, I'd like to know what is.

But what of the pickle barrel? Production in the UK ceased abruptly with the
first order to DH - an immediate vaccum was created, a wartime critical
shortage in pickle barrels. Just another damned inconvenience of the war.
Even with the required coupons, there was simply no guarantee a proper pickle
barrel could be found.


Barnes Wallis came up with the Grand Slam, his Ten Tun Bomb, which was
described at the time as "firkin enormous".

Well, you all are familiar with the story by now. While touring the great
pickel barrel factories that once lined the Mississippi, Japanese
future-Admiral Isoroku Yamamoto could only marvel at America's pickle barrel
production capability. "We're doomed", he muttered. (In Japanese, of course.)
Later he was able to use his acquired knowledge - one captured JN 25 message,
decoded in the days prior to Pearl Harbor, included the exact locations of each
of the pickle barrels on board the Oklahoma and the Arizona - only luck and a
Seaman named Mojo Nixon kept the Nevada from suffering a similar fate; he is
widely credited with having moved the Nevada's pickle barrel to the dock
alongside the battleship, so he could polish it on the early morning of
December 7th, 19 Fo-tee-won. Tragically... well.. you know.

All of this is pickle barrel history, known by most school children.

This wasn't taught at my school, unfortunately, at least not to me. I
gave up History and Latin to concentrate on the techy stuff.

The mystery of the English wartime pickle barrels is solved by checking the
makers mark on the bottom of one of the few wartime survivors - on the Imperial
War Museum's pickle barrel, "Old Smellysides", all of the coopers signed their
names as it was the 5,000th pickle barrel to roll off the production line at
the Cape Girardeau plant. That makers mark, faded by decades of service and
overpolishing, is clearly the mark of Henry Ford. Perhaps most famous for his
innovation in pickle barrel production, he earned the nickname 'the American
Coopernicus'.

Yes, of course they were lend-lease. What a ridiculous thing to say.

I was only trying to find out.

I suspect you're trying to make me the butt of your humour. Bloody rude
colonial. :-)

v/r
Gordon
====(A+C====
USN SAR

An LZ is a place you want to land, not stay.


--
Peter

Ying tong iddle-i po!

All of this is pickle barrel history, known by most school children.

But not as well documented as it should be. I suggest you undertake a
short monograph on the subject -

As with most such projects on RAM, I suggest we discuss it to death and refuse
to budge an inch in our respective opinions, ultimately relying on name calling
and political skewering. Deal?

Yes, of course they were lend-lease. What a ridiculous thing to say.

No, not all - a point of clarification is required here. It is not
generally known that of the ten percent of conscripts who were diverted
to the coal mines by Earnest Bevin, a full five percent of these were in
turn diverted to the pickle barrel shadow factories. The lend-lease
barrels did of course far outnumber domestic production, the only issues
being the difficulty in cannibalising parts so that the Civilian Repair
Organisation could rebuild damaged ones. (The difference between the US
inch and the English inch made stave interchangeability difficult at
times.) And again, English hand-made vs US machine produced brought the
usual debates about whether the English staves exhibited a proper
hyperbolic profile...

The later, streamlined US versions just never really took off. Sad, that.

G

this new
wooden wonder required every barrel shaper, clog carver, and cabinet
finisher
in the realm to bend their oars in production of the Mosquito.


What a load of balsa.

Precisely.

The aeronautical connection nearly ended in Bristol in the twenties. See
http://www.pfabristol.flyer.co.uk/december02.htm and look at the Type
72. If that's not a barrel, I'd like to know what is.

Looks like a GB built by the hand-crafting gents over at Jaguar...

But what of the pickle barrel? Production in the UK ceased abruptly with the
first order to DH - an immediate vaccum was created, a wartime critical
shortage in pickle barrels. Just another damned inconvenience of the war.
Even with the required coupons, there was simply no guarantee a proper
pickle
barrel could be found.


Barnes Wallis came up with the Grand Slam, his Ten Tun Bomb, which was
described at the time as "firkin enormous".

Thread drift alert! You have now begun the process of leading us off on a
'metal cylinder of unusually great size, packed with explosives' thread...

Well, you all are familiar with the story by now. While touring the great
pickel barrel factories that once lined the Mississippi, Japanese
future-Admiral Isoroku Yamamoto could only marvel at America's pickle barrel
production capability. "We're doomed", he muttered. (In Japanese, of
course.)
Later he was able to use his acquired knowledge - one captured JN 25
message,
decoded in the days prior to Pearl Harbor, included the exact locations of
each
of the pickle barrels on board the Oklahoma and the Arizona - only luck and
a
Seaman named Mojo Nixon kept the Nevada from suffering a similar fate; he is
widely credited with having moved the Nevada's pickle barrel to the dock
alongside the battleship, so he could polish it on the early morning of
December 7th, 19 Fo-tee-won. Tragically... well.. you know.

All of this is pickle barrel history, known by most school children.

This wasn't taught at my school, unfortunately, at least not to me. I
gave up History and Latin to concentrate on the techy stuff.

I had a classic American education - the word "Latin" was mention on three
occasions during the twelve years I irregularly attended class.

Yes, of course they were lend-lease. What a ridiculous thing to say.

I was only trying to find out.

I suspect you're trying to make me the butt of your humour.

Never, sir. I reserve my butt-making humor for Michael and his Moon Landing
Hoax posts.

Bloody rude colonial. :-)

Redundant, sir.

G

In article , Krztalizer
writes
All of this is pickle barrel history, known by most school children.

But not as well documented as it should be. I suggest you undertake a
short monograph on the subject -

As with most such projects on RAM, I suggest we discuss it to death and refuse
to budge an inch in our respective opinions, ultimately relying on name calling
and political skewering. Deal?

Is that what happens on RAM? I must have missed this. I can't think of
a single example of rudeness or obtuseness - all I ever read seems to me
to be mature opinions offered after considerable thought, presented in a
humble manner, and in a spirit of generosity.

Whoops - there goes my alarm - time to take my Prozak.

Byeeee!


--
Dave Eadsforth

Does anybody know where these pickle barrels came from? Were they Lend
Lease?

No, they were exclusively used by the USAAF.

"The target for the Eighth on 4 April was the Renault plant near Paris. Three
diversions drew the German defenders away and permitted the lead 305th Bomb
Group to destroy the complex; 498 out of 500 bombs fell within the target
area."

--"JG 26; Top Guns of the Luftwaffe" p. 156 by Donald L. Caldwell

Walt

"Tamas Feher" wrote in message ...
There is no doubt that the germans were quite
capable of producing optics

What's mo
I wonder if anybody can match the Carl Zeiss, Jena plant?

Carl Zeis certaibly had outstandingly precise optics: most of the post
war night vision devices used by both sides of the cold war was based
on their work and patents.

Having the plans for an advanced bombsight means nothing unless you
have the expertise to machine, assemble and calibrate the fine devices
required. Without this the plans are useless.

"Jukka O. Kauppinen" wrote in message ...
Any truth to this? What part if any of the Norden sight did the
Germans utilize?

As already mentioned, they did indeed have Norden plans.

But Germany already had perfectly good bombsights capable of as good
bomb delivery as a Norden. Nothing so spectacular in that one.

For example the Stuvi sights used in Ju-87s and Ju-88s were highly
advanced, computerized sights for their day. They show that building a
advanced and accurate sight was not something that just the British or
Americans were capable of.

I believe many if not most of the Ju88s supplied to Finland were
supplied with the Lofte 7 wind correcting computing bombsight.

Most of the myth of the Norden is based around propaganda. The public
of the day like to think that the Americans had a secret weapon while
it also improved troop moral and perhaps conveyed the impression that
cities were not being flatend by high altitude bombing collateral
damage. Maintaining moral around superior weapons is pretty important
and once this myth was started no one was going to stop it.

Really the Norden was not that advanced. It wasn't supplied to the
British not becuase it was too secret but simply because it was in
short supply up untill 1943. It had many deficiencies: it couldn't be
used in a slide bombing attack like the later British sights and
deficiencies in the wide angle optics and speed of tracking made it
useless at low altitudes.

Using ordinary bomb sights reasonably good accuracy could be achieved
at up to 5000 feet.

Sights like the Norden which compensated for wind drift seemed to give
good results from up to 10000 feet.

Various degrees of 'automation' could be introduced.

1 Gyro stabalising the aim point to help the bombadier during run up
while the aircraft was being jostelled and manoevered.

2 Continiously computing the aim point on the basis of aircraft
manoevers and speed changes. (Essentaily the what the Stuvi did I
suspect)

3 Providing a target tracking system that attempted to track the
target on the basis of airspeed and altitude above ground. By then
providing servo motors adjusted by the bombadier or pilot to adjust
for the drift from the target the wind drift rate could be calculated
by integration on a ball integrator and the correction applied to the
continously computed aim point.

4 Corrective manoevers would then be applied either by the bombadier
by signaling with a paddle to the pilot or direct via the autopilot.
(I think Art Kramer mentions that the manual method was mostly used)




jok