Rolling a Non Aerobat 150

Dave Stadt wrote:

"Matt Whiting" wrote in message
...
I also don't see the logic in spin recognition vs. spin training. I

don't see how you can learn to be proficient in spin entry


Who cares if one is proficient in spin entry. For normal flight it is a
totally useless ability.

So are steep turns and other maneuvers. Most training isn't for normal
situations it is for the abnormal.


and recovery

without learning to recognize a stall and incipient spin. So this whole
concept of stall recognition vs. stall training seems pretty illogical
to me.


We are not talking about stalls. Stalls do not equal spins. But as long as
you brought it up, learning to recognize and recover from an incipent stall
(NOT SPIN) will prevent a spin. It's the old chain of events scenario.
Break the chain early on and you don't need to worry about what might
happen later. This makes spin recovery an unneeded ability. If you've
screwed the pooch bad enough to get into a spin you are probably out of
altitude anyway and all the training in the world won't do you any good.

Yes, and if you never get a flat tire you never need a spare, yet most
cars still have a spare as you simply can't be sure that you will never
hit something that puts down a tire. Same with spins. The reality is
that there are situations where you can stall and enter a spin pretty
quickly and knowing what has happened and how to address it is a very
useful ability.



It's all extremely logical.

Only in your mind and that of FAA bureacrats.


Matt

George Patterson wrote:

Chris G. wrote:

Considering the most likely spot for a power-on stall is just after
takeoff, I want that spin training (which we're going to do in a C150).


I'm quite happy with the training I was given that allows me to
recognize an impending stall and avoid that. If I don't stall the
aircraft, it's not going to spin.

And I'm happy that you are happy with substandard training. However,
I'm not happy with substandard training. Not training in spins is like
not training on PP for the instrument rating. Sure, if you avoid a
vacuum failure, then you avoid the need for PP. The trouble is,
sometimes bad things happen...


Matt

George Patterson wrote:

Corky Scott wrote:


What is the answer your boss wants to hear?


That's the correct question to ask.

From what I've read, I think the "book" answer is to maintain attitude
control as well as possible, don't worry about altitude excursions much,
and try to get out of it. I've read differing opinions on the best way
to accomplish the latter; some people like a 180 and others say that the
shortest way out may be straight ahead. Communication with ATC also has
to be fit in there somewhere.

But if you simply avoid thunderstorms like you avoid stalls, then you
don't need to worry about any of these techniques, right? :-)


Matt

Mortimer Schnerd, RN wrote:

Corky Scott wrote:

On Thu, 09 Jun 2005 09:44:29 GMT, "Mortimer Schnerd, RN"
wrote:


I am reminded of a prospective pilot my employer was interviewing: what
would he do if he stumbled into a thunderstorm. Expecting the usual
techniques, I was surprised to hear him say: "I don't go into
thunderstorms". My boss kept pushing him on the subject: "Well, if you
somehow did, what would you do?" The prospect kept bleating he didn't fly
in thunderstorms. Well, I don't either, willingly, but sometimes they're
hiding out there. He might as well have said he didn't ever fly in real
IFR. He didn't get the job.

What is the answer your boss wants to hear?



Lower your seat all the way, put on your hat, tighten your seat belt *tight*,
turn up the instrument lights to their brightest setting (day or night), reduce
power, reduce speed to maneuvering speed, say a prayer. Did I forget anything?

Yes, lower the gear if in a retract.

Matt

Dave Stadt wrote:
You honestly believe spin training would save you if you spun with a load of
ice? Surely you jest.


I know what's going to happen if I do nothing.



--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN

VE

Matt Whiting wrote:
But if you simply avoid thunderstorms like you avoid stalls, then you
don't need to worry about any of these techniques, right? :-)


Unfortunately, that requires you fly VFR at all times.



--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN

VE

"Mortimer Schnerd, RN" wrote in message
. ..
Dave Stadt wrote:
You honestly believe spin training would save you if you spun with a
load of
ice? Surely you jest.


I know what's going to happen if I do nothing.



--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN

VE

Over gross, iced up and in a spin is Darwin award time.

"Dave Stadt" wrote in
m:


"Mortimer Schnerd, RN" wrote in
message . ..
Dave Stadt wrote:
You honestly believe spin training would save you if you spun with a
load of
ice? Surely you jest.


I know what's going to happen if I do nothing.



--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN

VE

Over gross, iced up and in a spin is Darwin award time.

This reminds me of a scenario my motorcycle class instructor
gave the class.

Your flying up the on ramp to a freeway, one of those clover
leaf types that have you go around in a 270 and the center is
filled with foliage. You're going as fast as you can, leaning
way over and dragging your knee on the ground just like the
best of them. Suddenly up ahead you notice a bus stopped at
the traffic light at the top of the ramp*.

What do you do?

The class offered up all sorts of answers, none of which were
right. I happened to have the right answer, that you don't put
yourself into that situation in the first place.

My point is, I see flying over gross weight as putting yourself
into a potentially unrecoverable situation.

*Don't know if other places have these, but here in LA there's
traffic lights at the top of the onramps to regulate the flow
cars entering the freeway during peak traffic hours. It's
supposed to space the oncoming vehicles apart so they can merge
smoothly with existing traffic.

The problem I have with these lights is that the stupid drivers
dont' hit the gas hard enough and they then try merging with
70 mph traffic at 30mph. It's bad enough that they do that
without the light.

Advantage is to the motorcycle, especially if there's a carpool
lane, as we are allowed to use them here in Kah-lee-for-nyuh.

Just some thoughts....

Brian
--
http://www.skywise711.com - Lasers, Seismology, Astronomy, Skepticism

Home of the Seismic FAQ
http://www.skywise711.com/SeismicFAQ/SeismicFAQ.html

Sed quis custodiet ipsos Custodes?

Skywise wrote:
My point is, I see flying over gross weight as putting yourself
into a potentially unrecoverable situation.


Nobody wants to do it. OTOH, what do you do when you're flying Part 135; you're
given the load and expected to move it. Quit? Be out of work for several weeks
and have to move to find another job? I know the easy answer. I know the smart
answer. I also know the real answer.

Freight dogs do a lot of stuff smarter guys wouldn't attempt. Most of the time
we get away with it; sometimes we don't.

I worked for a company that had (among other things) a Geronimo conversion
Apache with 180 hp a side (compared to the normal Apache's 150 hp/side). My
boss wanted me to fly it but I was resistant, mostly due to its unconventional
instrument panel. ASI was on the far right, altimeter on the top left, etc... I
just couldn't see myself flying that thing IFR. He pushed, I delayed. Finally,
he sent his chief pilot down to Charlotte to pick me up in it one gray morning
and fly a load of cancelled checks to RDU. As it turned out, the load would put
us about 400 lbs overgrossed.

"Sheeitt.... you fly it to Raleigh and leave me behind", I said. "No need", he
said, "it can do it". Well, I was as nervous as a whore in church but I got in
and we took our place in line. To make a long story short, we were airborne
before I crossed the intersection of 5/23... a distance of about 1000 feet. Not
only were we airborne, we were climbing STRONGLY. "Hmmm.... maybe this isn't so
bad".

Of course, if an engine failed, I'd have been screwed. I knew that. I also
know if that airplane had arrived in Raleigh without me I'd likely be out of
work... and flying jobs in 1989 didn't grow on trees. You do what you do.

But every time a commuter or a freighter falls out of the sky I think about what
may really have happened that will never be discussed.



--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN

VE

Dave Stadt wrote:
You honestly believe spin training would save you if you spun with a load
of
ice? Surely you jest.

Where did the ice come in?