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#11
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the P-59 was never intended for combat use. Hap Arnold certainly thought he was getting a combat airplane in the P-59A (not to be confused with the never-built P-59). If he'd wanted a test-bed, he could have ordered something on the order of the Gloster Carter Farter or the little Heinkel. This thread is a bit silly. There was only one jet fighter in WWII, and that was the Me 262. Getting there too late for combat (P-80) doesn't count. Chasing V-1s (Meteor) doesn't count. Being deemed unsuitable for combat (P-59A) doesn't count. The only thing that counts is shooting down enemy aircraft. Anyone who has followed my postings on the German air force knows that I'm not a greater admirer of its war-fighting record. But in the case of the Me-262, the Germans built a handsome, innovative, and terrifying war machine. We can all be grateful that it came too late to make any difference in how the air battle over Germany worked out. all the best -- Dan Ford (email: info AT danford.net) see the Warbird's Forum at http://www.danford.net/index.htm Vietnam | Flying Tigers | Pacific War | Brewster Buffalo | Piper Cub |
#12
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On Sat, 05 Jul 2003 06:09:22 -0400, Cub Driver
wrote: This thread is a bit silly. There was only one jet fighter in WWII, and that was the Me 262. Getting there too late for combat (P-80) doesn't count. Chasing V-1s (Meteor) doesn't count. Being deemed unsuitable for combat (P-59A) doesn't count. The only thing that counts is shooting down enemy aircraft. The Meteors did force down a Storch.... That's a little unfair, they also made several strafing claims. They were too late to have any significance, but this also applies (to a lesser extent) to the 262 as you point out. Gavin Bailey -- "...this level of misinformation suggests some Americans may be avoiding having an experience of cognitive dissonance." - 'Poll shows errors in beliefs on Iraq, 9/11' The Charlotte Observer, 20th June 2003 |
#13
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ubject: #1 Jet of World War II
From: (The Revolution Will Not Be Televised) Date: 7/5/03 1:39 AM Pacific Daylight Time Message-id: the 2nd Tactical Air Force at the time in question, please pass on the information. No. I served in the 344th Bomb Group, 494th Bomb Squadron of the 99th wing of the 9th Air force, So you didn't serve in 2nd TAF or experience operations on the 2nd TAF area of operations? If n I would be interested in your experiences with the 2nd TAF. Y'know basic simple stuff .Missions flown. Targets attacked. Y'know, simple stuff. We guys who led the charge flying the tip of the spear gotta stick together.It's only right. Arthur Kramer Visit my WW II B-26 website at: http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer |
#14
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#15
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"Cub Driver" wrote in message ... This thread is a bit silly. There was only one jet fighter in WWII, and that was the Me 262. Getting there too late for combat (P-80) doesn't count. Chasing V-1s (Meteor) doesn't count. Why doesn't chasing V-1s count? Being deemed unsuitable for combat (P-59A) doesn't count. The only thing that counts is shooting down enemy aircraft. Why isn't the V-1 an enemy aircraft? |
#16
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We can all be grateful that it came too late
to make any difference in how the air battle over Germany worked out. Agreed, Dan. As Hap Arnold said a few days after the war as he watched a captured Me 262 thunder past him at an Allied airfield, "We really got lucky..." v/r Gordon |
#17
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Probably 'cause it's considered a "flying bomb" or an early cruise
missile. Technically, it IS an enemy aircraft since it has wings & flies, but it wasn't piloted & wasn't much of an adversary in that aspect. |
#18
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"Gordon" wrote in message ... We can all be grateful that it came too late to make any difference in how the air battle over Germany worked out. Agreed, Dan. As Hap Arnold said a few days after the war as he watched a captured Me 262 thunder past him at an Allied airfield, "We really got lucky..." "Hap" Arnold was at times given to hyperbole. For example, upon seeing a demonstration for the first time of an early-model Mosquito, he blurted, "We've (the Allies) won the war!" Perhaps he meant that remark in terms of qualitave measures. That the Me-262 was not a sgnificant a/c had exactly nothing to do with luck. Allied depredations against the sources of proper materiels for its turbine construction (and against all other German jet engines to boot) combined with relentless bombing attacks on its formal production facilities and fuel sources as well as the lines of communication from factory to airfield meant that no more than perhaps 200 such underdeveloped, short-ranged a/c were ever available to the Luftwaffe on a given day. The great majority of Me-262s were either bombed to bits at their factories or strafed into ribbons on their airfields. If either side were "lucky" it was Germany, not the Allies, because the latter elected not to seriously explore applications of jet-propulsion until some point in 1943. |
#19
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Subject: #1 Jet of World War II
From: Bill Shatzer Date: 7/5/03 11:17 PM Pacific Daylight Time Message-id: On Sun, 6 Jul 2003, Mike Dargan wrote: Frank May wrote: Probably 'cause it's considered a "flying bomb" or an early cruise missile. Technically, it IS an enemy aircraft since it has wings & flies, but it wasn't piloted & wasn't much of an adversary in that aspect. Pretty scary to shoot at--especially if you manage to set of a ton of high explosive right in front of you. Hardly scarier than shooting at a bomber with 3 to 6 tons (or more) of explosives on board. And, unlike a V-1, the bomber can shoot back. Cheers and all, Like everything else in war, you are not supposed to like it , you are just supposed to do it .If it belongs to the enemy, you kill it. Arthur Kramer Visit my WW II B-26 website at: http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer |
#20
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"Cub Driver" wrote in message ... If either side were "lucky" it was Germany, not the Allies, because the latter elected not to seriously explore applications of jet-propulsion until some point in 1943. This would come as a great surprise to Frank Whittle, the Gloster company, and the Air Ministry, and even Hap Arnold, GE, and Bell in the United States, all of whom were vigorously pursuing turbojet fighters by the end of 1941. The Germans had a bit of an edge (and they did take it more seriously before September 1939), but they exploited the edge to better effect than the Allies did. Even today, the Me-262 is a very impressive airplane. Point well-taken, Cub Driver,...except...,that in comparison to the monies involved in perfecting piston engines and airframes to which to fit them, the Allies had not placed turbine propulsion on the front burner. Lockheed, for example, was rebuffed when it approached the USAAC with its earliest jet-fighter proposal (a stainless steel, cannon-amed twin-axial-flow turbojet employing boundary-layer control and a front-mounted canard with operating altitudes upwards of 50,000 ft and speed of about 625 mph or so). Instead, Bell AC was awarded the first development contracts, and the result was the P-59, an overweight, underpowered a/c with little scope for development. Lockheed had to wait until 1943 before being given the go-ahead on what became the P-80, employing a British-designed centrifugal-flow turbojet and was never provided funding for the r&d on either its propietary axial-flow turbojet engine or its airframe. Where I can't agree with you yet is over whether the Me-262 is impressive. Seems to me that a fighter which has trouble getting airborne, trouble staying airborne for more than 25 minutes and which is unable to complete a turn while over a single county was of any real use to the Reich. The victory claims (as you, especially, have reason to understand) attributed to this a/c were highly inflated. The a/c's airframe and engines were underdeveloped, and as a consequence it was as much of a threat to its pilots as was enemy action. I read Mr. Whittle's bio a few years ago. IIRC, all he needed was official backing (i.e., money) and he could have produced and perfected his gem far earlier than historically. |
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