No SID in clearance, fly it anyway?

Greg Esres wrote in message . ..
That's not always the case. And to make matters worse, the pilot
has no way of knowing without direct knowledge.

When would that not be the case? And if it were the case, the pilot
must certainly know. If you don't hear the words "radar contact"
followed by a heading, then you're not being vectored.

Greg,

Now that I think about it some more, I think the issue is
that some VFR towers (which won't tell you "radar contact")
can relay radar vectors from the radar approach control
which serves them. But sitting on the ground, I have no
way of knowing whether Whatzits Approach meets the criteria
(whatever they are) to provide radar vectors to Podunk Tower.
If I hear "fly heading XXX, intercept the ABC 188 degree
radial" is that a vector or a heading?

Beats me. We've sure gotten headings like that from VFR
towers which I'm pretty durn sure were way too far from
a radar facility to have coverage close to the ground, and
in fact we didn't hear "radar contact" until we were above
3,000 ft. So I don't think they were vectors. They were
headings. OTOH "fly heading XXX" from our local VFR tower
which sits under the STL class B might be vectors. Dunno.

I think the rule has to be, if there's something to hit
and departure instructions don't include the obstacle
DP, Ask.

Cheers,
Sydney

Newps wrote:

wrote:


And, at a mountain airport, until you reach MVA on departure, even the
radar controller and you are in a obstacle-clearance haze.

Mountain airport, non mountain airport it doesn't matter. There is no haze.

Well, how do you determine where the obstacles are below the MVA. Dig out a
sectional chart?

There is a whole lot of haze.

Newps wrote:

Greg Esres wrote:

Tower guys don't give headings, they give vectors

Nonsense. Vectors require radar contact, and lots of towers aren't
associated at all with any radar facility.

Vectors do not require radar contact when issued with your takeoff
clearance. There are rules as to how soon after you takeoff that you
must be seen on the radar, otherwise the controller cannot vector you.
The tower itself does not have to have radar to give you a vector. If
the approach control can see aircraft within a half a mile after takeoff
they may have the tower give you a vector.

That is a contradiction in terms. If the tower controller can't see you on
radar he cannot vector you. He can only assign a heading.

Ron Rosenfeld wrote:



Well it should be the case whenever you receive heading instructions from
the tower that they either do not conflict with an ODP, or that they have
been assessed for a DVA. These vectors are below the MVA and a 200 f/nm
climb rate is assumed unless ATC obtains your concurrence with a higher
minimum rate of climb.

"Should" is the operative word. DVAs simply do not fit at most mountain area
airports. There wasn't even any DVA criteria until recently in TERPs. But,
those criteria simply don't fit at places like Reno, Salt Lake, and Las Vegas.
200 feet per mile is a fiction unless you are in Omaha. ;-)



It has not always been the case in the past. MRY as recently as 1999 was
one facility where, at that time, they were issuing instructions in
conflict with an ODP. Specifically they were vectoring folk to the east
(towards some high mountains). I think this was changed when it was
pointed out to them.

Would be interesting to know whether it's really changed. They still don't
have the most promint close-in obstacles on their MVA video map and, although,
this has been brought to their attention at Industry/FAA meetings, Air Traffic
Service simply goes into the bunker mode.

In article ,
(Snowbird) wrote:

Um...VFR tower guys (the subject of this subthread
is non-radar towers) don't give vectors.

Is there an official definition of a "VFR tower" or a "non-radar tower"?

The tower where I got the clearance that started this all was HPN (White
Plains, NY). It's got a scope in the tower cab and a rotating antenna
on the field, even though the tracon is in a remote location (somewhere
out in Long Island). From a hardware point of view, it's better
equipped than LaGuardia (which has no rotating antenna on the field),
even though HPN is Class D and LGA is Class B.

also that flying the ODP is at the pilot's prerogative. There is no
requirement to "notify" ATC and they had better protect the
appropriate airspace if they are doing their job correctly.

But it's an open question of what "pilot's prerogative" means. That
doesn't necessarily mean that the route is automatically protected.

The whole reason I called the Sante Fe tower was to get an answer to
this particular question, but as soon as I mentioned the words
"pilot's prerogative", the controller blurted out "yes, but...." and
proceed to tell me about the hypothetical situation I described to
you. But anyway, I assure you that I remember his opinion on the
matter very clearly; the only thing vaguely remembered is the scenario
he set up.

Still, you'd better wait for Bill English or Scott Dunham to respond
to your AVSIG question before you become too confident about what
ATC's responsibility is. I'm interested in their responses too.

VFR towers (which won't tell you "radar contact") can relay radar
vectors from the radar approach control which serves them.

I can buy the idea of a relayed vector, but the person who provided
the vector still must see you on radar. When the aircraft is sitting
on the ground, approach control can't see it and therefore can't
vector it.


Consider that if you take off with the heading and start to wander
into some obstacle, tower won't be able to do anything about it
(because they won't know) and neither will the approach control until
they get you on radar, which will happen at various altitudes,
depending on where you're departing from.

Hmmm, just be make things clear (I hope)...

Can you explain what your background is on this subject? I haven't
seen your name before.

The vector...originates in...the IFR facility (radar approach
control or center) and is *relayed* to the aircraft by the tower.

Nah, that doesn't work for me. The radar facility doesn't have you on
radar either, because you haven't left the ground, so they can't
vector you either.

Again, the most significant way in which this heading differs from a
vector is the lack of obstacle protection. If I have to climb 10,000
feet before radar can see me, who is providing obstacle protection?

it's turning into a ****ing contest

Maybe, but that's assuming you think it's a distinction without a
difference.

Just as misunderstanding what the term "established" means has killed
some people, so too has the confusion between vectors and no-vectors,
according to many articles I've read.

Sloppy use of the term "vector" can lead to a sloppy understanding of
who is providing terrain separation. The first step is proper use of
the term, IMO.

Roy Smith wrote, "... Whether or not the controller goofed in reading me my
clearance or listening to my readback, I'm now convinced I goofed too. ..."

I try to record all communications so I can go back, if I want, and hear
what was actually said. Sometimes it's as I remember, sometimes not.

Jon