No SID in clearance, fly it anyway?

"Greg Esres" wrote in message
...


Consider that if you take off with the heading and start to wander
into some obstacle, tower won't be able to do anything about it
(because they won't know) and neither will the approach control

That's where the period goes. Approach may know, but may not be able to do
anything about it.

until
they get you on radar, which will happen at various altitudes,
depending on where you're departing from.


Radar coverage and "radar contact" have nothing to do with terrain
clearance, except when above the MVA and a vector is issued. Even then there
can be errors, so it's wisest to always know position relative to terrain.

I believe that there is a HUGE pilot misconception about the level of
assistance for terrain avoidance when departing a towered field.

I have learned to always request and fly ODPs when they exist, no matter
what kind of airport, or weather. It's good practice. I believe that the
same applies for SIDs as a way to reduce the risk of metal to metal contact.

Greg Esres wrote:
Heading and vector are synonomous.

There are no nonradar headings. A nonradar tower or approach
control can not, by definition, vector.

You're contradicting yourself, dude.

Non-radar facilities can, and, do, issue headings, but as you say,
they cannot vector, because they do not have radar.

Any heading issued by a tower controller is a vector.

As you stated above, a non-radar tower cannot vector, but they can
issue headings.

A nonradar facility cannot vector. There aren't very many of them
around anymore. Helena, MT is one of the few left. They are a nonradar
approach control and tower. You will fly the DP and it is a one in and
one out facility. You will never get a vector or a heading from them.
Now if they are a VFR tower, with or without a DBRITE scope, they may
give a vector if the approach control gives the tower the vector with
the IFR release. And of course a tower with radar gives vectors all the
time. As a matter of fact at my facility we have made the tower
controller a radar controller, it let's us use the airspace more
efficiently since we do a lot of opposite direction stuff.



You're vastly outvoted by other experts in the subject, so I think you
are in error and are dangerously misleading readers, because the
heading assignment by tower is not capable of providing what a vector
provides, which is terrain clearance.

If terrain is a factor there will be a DP. Any vector will meet that.
None of this changes the fact that there is no difference between a
vector and a heading, they are synonomous.

Greg Esres wrote:

They are either canned from the LOA with the IFR facility, relayed
verbatim from the IFR facility (4-2-4), or the tower controller is
trained, certified, and delegated the authority by the appropriate
level of management to use the tower radar display to issue them
(3-1-9c).


Exactly. In the first case, the tower is not capable of tracking the
aircraft with respect to obstacles, and therefore cannot provide any
terrain clearance, which is why they can't vector.

No, many approach control facilities will have an LOA with a tower to
send the departures out on canned headings not for terrain but for
operational needs. Take a busy airspace like Minneapolis. MSP TRACON
will have an LOA with the four towers in their airspace. What they can
do is tell each tower that you can automatically release IFR departures
but they have to be on certain headings, these headings will guarantee
separation from all other IFR traffic in the area. Each faciltiy wins
in this deal. TRACON doesn't have to constantly answer the landline to
issue releases and tower doesn't have to call all the time.

KP wrote:



In the first two instances the departing aircraft is still being vectored.
The vector (a heading issued to provide radar navigational guidance) is
being issued (originates in) the IFR facility (radar approach control or
center) and is *relayed* to the aircraft by the tower. The aircraft may be
talking to the tower but the initial *vector* is (technically) coming from
the approach control or center.

Or the tower if the tower is a radar facility. All class B and C towers
are radar facilities. All have automatic release agreements with their
respective approach controls.



In the third instance the tower issues (originates) the vector. Normally
the tower is delegated a "fan" of headings to use in the LOA. This allows
them to take advantage of the 15deg divergence rule for succesive or
simultaneous departures contained in 5-8-3.

Yes.



Whether a tower does or does not have a radar display has no effect on
whether tower controllers can or cannot *relay* vectors. ANY facility can
relay IFR clearances/instructions.

Yes.



Just because a tower has a radar display does not mean it can *issue*
vectors either. That authority is delegated by the IFR facility through
management channels, is location specific, and operationally unique.

Some VFR towers have a DBRITE scope but are not allowed to vector. It
is the controller equivalent of a VFR GPS. It is for situational
awareness only.

Snowbird wrote:

Newps wrote in message news:mI_ob.83301$e01.270611@attbi_s02...


Tower guys don't give headings, they give vectors


Um...VFR tower guys (the subject of this subthread
is non-radar towers) don't give vectors.

Sure they can.

Snowbird wrote:



Now that I think about it some more, I think the issue is
that some VFR towers (which won't tell you "radar contact")
can relay radar vectors from the radar approach control
which serves them. But sitting on the ground, I have no
way of knowing whether Whatzits Approach meets the criteria
(whatever they are) to provide radar vectors to Podunk Tower.
If I hear "fly heading XXX, intercept the ABC 188 degree
radial" is that a vector or a heading?

Vectors and headings are the same.


I think the rule has to be, if there's something to hit
and departure instructions don't include the obstacle
DP, Ask.

Can't ever go wrong by asking.

wrote:


Newps wrote:


wrote:


And, at a mountain airport, until you reach MVA on departure, even the
radar controller and you are in a obstacle-clearance haze.

Mountain airport, non mountain airport it doesn't matter. There is no haze.


Well, how do you determine where the obstacles are below the MVA. Dig out a
sectional chart?

It's all laid out for the controller. Here at BIL we have some TV
antennas that are less than 3 miles from the airport, therefore we have
a vector SID. Everybody gets the SID, which tells you to climb at a
higher than normal rate until leaving a certain altitude. I issue you
that and I get to vector you where ever I want. Every other airport
with obstacles will have a similar procedure, does not matter if you are
in the mountains or not. If the airport is really closed in with
mountains the procedure just becomes more restrictive.

wrote:


Newps wrote:


Greg Esres wrote:


Tower guys don't give headings, they give vectors

Nonsense. Vectors require radar contact, and lots of towers aren't
associated at all with any radar facility.

Vectors do not require radar contact when issued with your takeoff
clearance. There are rules as to how soon after you takeoff that you
must be seen on the radar, otherwise the controller cannot vector you.
The tower itself does not have to have radar to give you a vector. If
the approach control can see aircraft within a half a mile after takeoff
they may have the tower give you a vector.


That is a contradiction in terms. If the tower controller can't see you on
radar he cannot vector you. He can only assign a heading.

If there is no radar in the tower the approach control will assign the
vector. If you get a heading in your takeoff clearance it is a vector.
Period.

Roy Smith wrote:

In article ,
(Snowbird) wrote:


Um...VFR tower guys (the subject of this subthread
is non-radar towers) don't give vectors.


Is there an official definition of a "VFR tower" or a "non-radar tower"?

A VFR tower is a tower with no radar at all in the cab or a DBRITE that
has not been certified for separation services. An example of a VFR
tower are all contract and non federal towers. Grand Forks, ND is VFR,
Van Nuys is VFR, etc. Almost all class D towers are VFR.

Greg Esres wrote:



I can buy the idea of a relayed vector, but the person who provided
the vector still must see you on radar.

Yes, they have to be able to see you by a certain point after departure
to be allowed to issue vectors in the takeoff clearance.


When the aircraft is sitting
on the ground, approach control can't see it and therefore can't
vector it.

Well we can see aircraft on the ground, though that has nothing to do
with anything.




Consider that if you take off with the heading and start to wander
into some obstacle, tower won't be able to do anything about it
(because they won't know) and neither will the approach control until
they get you on radar, which will happen at various altitudes,
depending on where you're departing from.

In order to get a vector off the ground you have to be seen by the radar
facility within a half mile of the airport. So you can't wander into
anything.