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#11
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Future Club Training Gliders
On Sep 14, 10:09*pm, Darryl Ramm wrote:
On Sep 14, 9:48*pm, "kirk.stant" wrote: On Sep 14, 7:49*pm, ray conlon wrote: On Sep 14, 7:13*pm, John Cochrane wrote: I just talked to John Murray about other stuff, and he mentioned that ASK 21 are actually remarkably easy to get right now. Our club (chicago glider club) just bought a new ASK21, and it's a joy both to fly and teach in. John Cochrane Get the Schweizers to bring back the 2-33's, the best BASIC trainer ever built.... Yeah, and the Air Force is going to replace it's T-38s with AT-6s. Sorry, but the 2-33 is simply not the right trainer anymore (if it ever was, considering that it postdates the Blanik and is a contemporary of the sweet little ASK-13!). *We need to attract people to this sport, not drive them away screaming (or laughing,,,) Kirk Kirk, well said. ASK-21 -- great solid and safe ship from a proven manufacturer capable of supporting their fleet. Then get pilots into the Duos and DG-1000S class club machines as soon as possible and you'll have more of a chance of keeping them in the sport. At least give them lots of chances early on to see what a high performance glider can do. Darryl- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - I am really curious. How many of you got into soaring with no prior interest in flying? I wanted to fly since I was about 4 years old. When I was 47, I finally got the chance, and almost all my lessons were in a 2-33. Frankly I don't think it would have mattered to me WHAT the club had to fly. I just wanted to be in the air. |
#12
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Future Club Training Gliders
On Sep 14, 10:30*pm, Grider Pirate wrote:
On Sep 14, 10:09*pm, Darryl Ramm wrote: On Sep 14, 9:48*pm, "kirk.stant" wrote: On Sep 14, 7:49*pm, ray conlon wrote: On Sep 14, 7:13*pm, John Cochrane wrote: I just talked to John Murray about other stuff, and he mentioned that ASK 21 are actually remarkably easy to get right now. Our club (chicago glider club) just bought a new ASK21, and it's a joy both to fly and teach in. John Cochrane Get the Schweizers to bring back the 2-33's, the best BASIC trainer ever built.... Yeah, and the Air Force is going to replace it's T-38s with AT-6s. Sorry, but the 2-33 is simply not the right trainer anymore (if it ever was, considering that it postdates the Blanik and is a contemporary of the sweet little ASK-13!). *We need to attract people to this sport, not drive them away screaming (or laughing,,,) Kirk Kirk, well said. ASK-21 -- great solid and safe ship from a proven manufacturer capable of supporting their fleet. Then get pilots into the Duos and DG-1000S class club machines as soon as possible and you'll have more of a chance of keeping them in the sport. At least give them lots of chances early on to see what a high performance glider can do. Darryl- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - I am really curious. *How many of you got into soaring with no prior interest in flying? *I wanted to fly since I was about 4 years old. When I was 47, I finally got the chance, and almost all my lessons were in a 2-33. *Frankly I don't think it would have mattered to me WHAT the club had to fly. I just wanted to be in the air. I got a power ticket at 17. Lost interest in my late-twenties, but travel and living overseas for work was a part of that. Took a XC ride in a Duo in my early forties. Yehow..... OK being in the air is great, but after playing in a Duo I had no interest in flying a sardine can/ brick and that would not have encouraged me in the slightest to get a glider rating. I had flown in a L13 as a teenager and thought the Cessna 172 I flew was more interesting. That Duo ride lead to suffering in a 2-32 to get my ticket so I could get back to the glass stuff... club Grob, Pegasus, DG-1000S. And very quickly my own DG-303 and now ASH-26E. Darryl |
#13
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Future Club Training Gliders
I am really curious. *How many of you got into soaring with no prior
interest in flying? *I wanted to fly since I was about 4 years old. When I was 47, I finally got the chance, and almost all my lessons were in a 2-33. *Frankly I don't think it would have mattered to me WHAT the club had to fly. I just wanted to be in the air. Yes I had an interest in all types of aircraft prior to my first flight in a sailplane. I came to give it a try after 15+ years of flying hang gliders and my first flight was in a 2-33. I can assure you that I didn't get into flying sailplanes in order to fly a 2-33 or a 1-26(No offense to the 1-26rs out there, it's just not what I wanted). Hang gliding will give you far more challenges in going XC than a 1-26 and you can do it without the hassles of towplanes, FAA registration or the maintenance that comes along with sailplanes. A sleek and beautiful glass ship screams efficiency and draws attention even from non-flyers. I am fortunate enough to own a Duo, a glider I bought in part because my feeling is that far too many club members are lost because they never experience the next level of performance and capability beyond our basic trainers. The Blanik L-13 was a good step up from the 2-33 and a nice honest airplane that I enjoy flying, but still lacks the performance of glass and is a bear to pack up and trailer making it intimidating at a minimum for XC when the penalty for an off-field landing is such a large effort. When visitors come by the club and see the 2-33s and the Duo, which one do you think draws their attention and interest in a demo more? Does that mean I'm going to offer up my Duo for primary training? Hell no, the 2-33 does a bang up job of taking the abuse of a new student. But it does mean that a significant retraining or at least additional training effort is required to get them prepared for flying something slippery and pitch sensitive. If it was within my power, I'd put an ASK-21 on the field. I wouldn't toss out the 2-33's or 1-26's, but I would certainly love to replace our L-13 with a 21 and have a glider to move people up in to and cross train in. Morgan |
#14
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Future Club Training Gliders
The one redeeming quality of the 2-33 "Dragmaster" is that it laughs
at anything roughly resembling a landing. Peregrine Sailplane got a government contract a few years ago and forgot about the glider project, including KR-03A support (ie 3000 hr life extension). The PW-6 has been around for a while. Perhaps it is a decent trainer? Ka13 is a lovely glider to fly, but getting old. IS28b2 goes nicely but has its share of problems. Never had a go in the IS32. Bocian? Capstan? Ka-2? At least they fly better than a 2-33. Too bad Glasflugel never made a two seater. How about converting 604s? Twin Astir is a bit of a truck to fly, but seems to take some abuse. Grob twin 2 is not bad, but I've seen a couple with the fuselage broken around the landing gear and more with square tail and nose wheels. Grob twin 3 handles nicer than the 2, know little of it's use as a basic trainer. The Puchacz is nice to fly, but some people just don't like it. Scheibe SF34 is a nice flyer, easy ground handling, great visibility front and rear. If the new Scheibe Aircraft puts it back into production the 34 could be a winner. DG500 isn't bad, not sure about maintenance. DG1000 is better if you get the electric landing gear mod and keep the battery charged. The Duo really is wonderful, especially the X (haven't flown XL) but not cheap. You cannot intentionally spin the original Duos. Great support. AS-H25 and Nimbus 4D are both very nice for XC training, but not for low time pilots. AS-K21 gets my vote for this job. Comfortable, sturdy, reasonable handling. Available new or used. Great support. Jim |
#15
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Future Club Training Gliders
On Tue, 14 Sep 2010 22:30:49 -0700, Grider Pirate wrote:
I am really curious. How many of you got into soaring with no prior interest in flying? I wanted to fly since I was about 4 years old. When I was 47, I finally got the chance, and almost all my lessons were in a 2-33. Frankly I don't think it would have mattered to me WHAT the club had to fly. I just wanted to be in the air. Sounds like me. I soloed two weeks after my 50th birthday. I flew a few different types of aircraft before then, but, after the duo-discus, I much preferred the Puchacz. I didn't like flying the type that wouldn't spin - was that the ASK 21? -- Alex |
#16
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Future Club Training Gliders
"JS" wrote in message
... The one redeeming quality of the 2-33 "Dragmaster" is that it laughs at anything roughly resembling a landing. However I suspect there could be a substantial amount of retraining required to fly other more slippery ships... snip The PW-6 has been around for a while. Perhaps it is a decent trainer? Fine to fly but allegedly somewhat delicate. Ka13 is a lovely glider to fly, but getting old. Lots around, cheap, the largest club in the UK has a fleet of them for it's primary trainers, now (I think) all with the nose wheel mod which is far safer than a skid for a messed-up landing. snip DG500 isn't bad, not sure about maintenance. Lovely to fly but not a primary trainer. snip AS-K21 gets my vote for this job. Comfortable, sturdy, reasonable handling. Available new or used. Great support. Jim Agreed. |
#17
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Future Club Training Gliders
On Sep 15, 5:35*am, "Surfer!" wrote:
"JS" wrote in message ... The one redeeming quality of the 2-33 "Dragmaster" is that it laughs at anything roughly resembling a landing. However I suspect there could be a substantial amount of retraining required to fly other more slippery ships... snip The PW-6 has been around for a while. Perhaps it is a decent trainer? Fine to fly but allegedly somewhat delicate. Ka13 is a lovely glider to fly, but getting old. Lots around, cheap, the largest club in the UK has a fleet of them for it's primary trainers, now (I think) all with the nose wheel mod which is far safer than a skid for a messed-up landing. snip DG500 isn't bad, not sure about maintenance. Lovely to fly but not a primary trainer. snip AS-K21 gets my vote for this job. Comfortable, sturdy, reasonable handling. Available new or used. Great support. Jim Agreed. A large part of the problem in attracting new pilots into soaring is the cost involved in getting started, you can buy/fly/insure 5 2-33's for the cost of 1 glass 2 seater, we are talking about a basic trainer here, not something to race 4 times a year. If the Blaniks and 2-33's go away, the SAA and number of glider pilots in the USA will shrink to no more than a couple of thousand pilots. Look at GA, anyone see long lines of people standing in the Mooney,Bonanza tents at Oshkosh lately? Notice the crowds in the Light Sport Aircraft tents? The only growth i sport flying is in the LSA area, you know ,the simple affordable aircraft. |
#18
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Future Club Training Gliders
On Sep 14, 10:48*pm, "kirk.stant" wrote:
On Sep 14, 7:49*pm, ray conlon wrote: On Sep 14, 7:13*pm, John Cochrane wrote: I just talked to John Murray about other stuff, and he mentioned that ASK 21 are actually remarkably easy to get right now. Our club (chicago glider club) just bought a new ASK21, and it's a joy both to fly and teach in. John Cochrane Get the Schweizers to bring back the 2-33's, the best BASIC trainer ever built.... Yeah, and the Air Force is going to replace it's T-38s with AT-6s. Sorry, but the 2-33 is simply not the right trainer anymore (if it ever was, considering that it postdates the Blanik and is a contemporary of the sweet little ASK-13!). *We need to attract people to this sport, not drive them away screaming (or laughing,,,) Kirk Exactly! The 2-33 is suffering the same metal fatigue problems in it's wings as the L-13. It also has a HUGE airworthiness issue in that the flight controls in the front cockpit cannot be moved full range without interfering with each other. Try holding the spoiler at 50% and moving the stick through its full range box. Its a mystery how it got an airworthiness certificate back in 1962. Most pilots with above average thigh circumference have very little left aileron with 50% spoiler. The only proper use of a 2-33 is hanging in a museum - as an example of how NOT to design a glider. |
#19
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Future Club Training Gliders
Am 15.09.10 01:13, schrieb John Cochrane:
I just talked to John Murray about other stuff, and he mentioned that ASK 21 are actually remarkably easy to get right now. Our club (chicago glider club) just bought a new ASK21, and it's a joy both to fly and teach in. I don't understand why someone would still buy an ASK21 today when you can get a DG1000 or a Duo which offer *much* more performance for little more money. And yes, they are perfectly suited for primary training. |
#20
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Future Club Training Gliders
Grider Pirate wrote:
I wanted to fly since I was about 4 years old. When I was 47, I finally got the chance, and almost all my lessons were in a 2-33. Frankly I don't think it would have mattered to me WHAT the club had to fly. I just wanted to be in the air. George Moffat in "Winning on the Wind": As a boy, I discovered a copy of Terence Horselay's "Soaring Flight" in the local library. I must have pretty much worn out their copy, mooning over pictures of the then fabulous Minimoa, reading accounts by the great Philip Wills, becoming utterly entranced with the idea of silent flight. .... [First training flights in the USA] After only a few flights in the stodgy two-place trainer, I became bored. The handling was poor, the performance terrible. There seemed no connection to the early dream. .... That summer, while living in Paris [his first solo in an Emouchet, the French version of the Grunau Baby] ... Once aloft, the air rushing over my face, the wings seeming extensions of my arms from the narrow cockpit, I knew that this was the experience I had dreamed about. ... That day, late in the evening, Camille Labar, member of the French National Team, skimmed over the field in the Breguet after completing a 440 km triangle. There were, it seemed, a few things to be learned. Bottom line: The training glider does matter. And it also does matter that there are some cross country pilots around. |
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