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#72
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In message , ArtKramr
writes There are those who fought: those who trained and were ready, but weren't called: those who would have enlisted and fought if called: and those who would refuse. You have a a lot to answer for. In that case so do I, but I'm not sure why. (Wore uniform, took the Queen's shilling, and now advise and support the frontline. Not my fault they haven't had a war that they wanted me for combat duty in.) -- When you have to kill a man, it costs nothing to be polite. W S Churchill Paul J. Adam MainBoxatjrwlynch[dot]demon{dot}co(.)uk Thren there ar ehtose who stepped forward and volunteered for the Air Force, the Marine Corps, the Paratroopers. Art, I *work* with Royal Marines, Paras and members of other specialist units. They accept my experience and trust my judgement in my fields of expertise, just as I have complete faith in theirs. Many of them have not seen combat, even when other members of their unit have (assigned to other duties, in the wrong battalion, whatever). Should we - for an example - denigrate the courage of 1 Para because they weren't sent to the Falklands? Are they "less brave" than, for example, the Blues and Royals or the Scots Guards, who despite not being "Air Force, Marines or Paras" went and fought? We thankfully don't have to do total wars these days: some regiments are sent to a conflict, others have other missions to cover. Then there are those who didn't. They just waited to be called many hoping they never would be. I suggest that there is a difference between these two calibers of men. No offense of course. I volunteered for the RAF. They told me that I couldn't join as aircrew because my eyesight wasn't good enough. I offered to join as an engineer officer and they told me to come back once I had my engineering degree: but by then we'd had "Options for Change" and they'd frozen recruitment, and I got a job designing and building their weapons instead. I signed up for the part-time Army in the meantime, though it seems that doesn't count either because you only recognise one regiment: I look forward to seeing you explain to my cousin (PWRR, but was attached to the Black Watch for Telic, got an unscheduled self-drive holiday in Basra) that he's "not a real soldier" because he didn't go Para. I signed up and served, and made myself ready to go: and a few years on I signed up in a different capacity and am ready to march to the colours again. I'm not really sure what more I'm supposed to do: start a war just so I can fight in it, perchance? -- When you have to kill a man, it costs nothing to be polite. W S Churchill Paul J. Adam MainBoxatjrwlynch[dot]demon{dot}co(.)uk |
#73
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Subject: Future military fighters and guns - yes or no ?
From: "Paul J. Adam" Date: 3/2/04 1:41 PM Pacific Standard Time Message-id: In message , ArtKramr writes There are those who fought: those who trained and were ready, but weren't called: those who would have enlisted and fought if called: and those who would refuse. You have a a lot to answer for. In that case so do I, but I'm not sure why. (Wore uniform, took the Queen's shilling, and now advise and support the frontline. Not my fault they haven't had a war that they wanted me for combat duty in.) -- When you have to kill a man, it costs nothing to be polite. W S Churchill Paul J. Adam MainBoxatjrwlynch[dot]demon{dot}co(.)uk Thren there ar ehtose who stepped forward and volunteered for the Air Force, the Marine Corps, the Paratroopers. Art, I *work* with Royal Marines, Paras and members of other specialist units. They accept my experience and trust my judgement in my fields of expertise, just as I have complete faith in theirs. Many of them have not seen combat, even when other members of their unit have (assigned to other duties, in the wrong battalion, whatever). Should we - for an example - denigrate the courage of 1 Para because they weren't sent to the Falklands? Are they "less brave" than, for example, the Blues and Royals or the Scots Guards, who despite not being "Air Force, Marines or Paras" went and fought? We thankfully don't have to do total wars these days: some regiments are sent to a conflict, others have other missions to cover. Then there are those who didn't. They just waited to be called many hoping they never would be. I suggest that there is a difference between these two calibers of men. No offense of course. I volunteered for the RAF. They told me that I couldn't join as aircrew because my eyesight wasn't good enough. I offered to join as an engineer officer and they told me to come back once I had my engineering degree: but by then we'd had "Options for Change" and they'd frozen recruitment, and I got a job designing and building their weapons instead. I signed up for the part-time Army in the meantime, though it seems that doesn't count either because you only recognise one regiment: I look forward to seeing you explain to my cousin (PWRR, but was attached to the Black Watch for Telic, got an unscheduled self-drive holiday in Basra) that he's "not a real soldier" because he didn't go Para. I signed up and served, and made myself ready to go: and a few years on I signed up in a different capacity and am ready to march to the colours again. I'm not really sure what more I'm supposed to do: start a war just so I can fight in it, perchance? -- When you have to kill a man, it costs nothing to be polite. W S Churchill Paul J. Adam MainBoxatjrwlynch[dot]demon{dot}co(.)uk They also serve who stand and wait. How would they have done in combat?. We will never know will we? Arthur Kramer 344th BG 494th BS England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany Visit my WW II B-26 website at: http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer |
#74
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"ArtKramr" wrote They also serve who stand and wait. How would they have done in combat?. We will never know will we? Art, it seems your dividing line between glory and those of a lesser caliber is combat/no combat. i.e. being shot at counts. Everything else somewhat less worthy. You know as well as most reading this that military personnel don't get to choose their war, or often even their job. No matter how many people volunteer for the Green Berets, the military *still* needs supply troops, bomb loaders, crew chiefs, etc, etc, etc. Of the many thousands of bombs I loaded in my career, none was dropped in anger. Not a one. Yet I served during several combat actions. Libya, Grenada, Panama, Somalia, Iraq. How did THAT happen? Why didn't I 'volunteer' for El Dorado Canyon, or Desert Storm? Because that's not the way it works anymore. My mission was elsewhere. Why didn't the F-16 pilots at Ramstein 'volunteer' for Desert Storm? Because that's not the way it works anymore. They had their own mission with the 86th FW in Germany. Not everyone gets to go, no matter how bad they want it. What would you say to Willie the Wolfs' crew chief? Or the bomb loaders? Or the supply troop that ensured you had good tires? Or the logistics officer ensuring the entire 8th AF had fresh tires? Would you call them a lesser caliber of men, simply because they were not shot at? No. You would shake their hand, buy them a beer, and thank them for helping you in *your* mission. They had theirs, you had yours. At least, that's what I hope you'd do. Now please extend the same respect to all those others who did serve honorably, volunteer or draftee, in war or in peace. Pete |
#75
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Subject: Future military fighters and guns - yes or no ?
From: "Pete" Date: 3/2/04 4:48 PM Pacific Standard Time Message-id: "ArtKramr" wrote They also serve who stand and wait. How would they have done in combat?. We will never know will we? Art, it seems your dividing line between glory and those of a lesser caliber is combat/no combat. i.e. being shot at counts. Everything else somewhat less worthy. You know as well as most reading this that military personnel don't get to choose their war, or often even their job. No matter how many people volunteer for the Green Berets, the military *still* needs supply troops, bomb loaders, crew chiefs, etc, etc, etc. Of the many thousands of bombs I loaded in my career, none was dropped in anger. Not a one. Yet I served during several combat actions. Libya, Grenada, Panama, Somalia, Iraq. How did THAT happen? Why didn't I 'volunteer' for El Dorado Canyon, or Desert Storm? Because that's not the way it works anymore. My mission was elsewhere. Why didn't the F-16 pilots at Ramstein 'volunteer' for Desert Storm? Because that's not the way it works anymore. They had their own mission with the 86th FW in Germany. Not everyone gets to go, no matter how bad they want it. What would you say to Willie the Wolfs' crew chief? Or the bomb loaders? Or the supply troop that ensured you had good tires? Or the logistics officer ensuring the entire 8th AF had fresh tires? Would you call them a lesser caliber of men, simply because they were not shot at? No. You would shake their hand, buy them a beer, and thank them for helping you in *your* mission. They had theirs, you had yours. At least, that's what I hope you'd do. Now please extend the same respect to all those others who did serve honorably, volunteer or draftee, in war or in peace. Pete Yes. Everything you say is correct. But I must be totally honest. As we rushed down the runway and lifted off and Willie's wheels came up I would look down at those on the ground that we were leaving behind and I would think how they will still be alive tonight. And they would go home after the war and live a full rich lives with families and friends. And I didn't know for sure that I would ever see this airfield again or live to see the sunrise tomorrow morning. These are thoughts I had. And these thoughts create a thin line that separates those who were with me and those who stayed behind on the ground. And I can't deny in good conscience having those feelings. And I think many who flew with me had exactly the same feelings whether they admit it or not. It's a very thin line of separation. But a very line it is. Can you understand that? Arthur Kramer 344th BG 494th BS England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany Visit my WW II B-26 website at: http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer |
#76
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"ArtKramr" wrote It's a very thin line of separation. But a very line it is. Can you understand that? Yes, we can. Until you denigrate those on the other side of your line. Pete |
#77
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"Pete" wrote:
"ArtKramr" wrote It's a very thin line of separation. But a very line it is. Can you understand that? Yes, we can. Until you denigrate those on the other side of your line. Pete Close...there is no line actually, there's just those people who support you, while being likewise supported themselves, and expecting you to do your part by providing support for others ahead of you. When you denigrate them they can no longer support you and large groups falter. We all have our place in the scheme of things. Almost all of us provide support for others while being supported ourselves by yet others. If you think one level is 'more important' than another level then you need to stand back and look at the whole enchilada. It all works like a well oiled machine 'till some jackass get's too big for his breeches and puts a crimp in the works. He then changes from as asset to a liability. Where do you fit Art? -- -Gord. |
#78
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Apparently in "Arts war" the rear areas ( England for instance) never got
bombed and those cowardly ground crews always "live to see the sunrise tomorrow morning". Pitty those cowardly fitters and loaders didnt hitch a ride on the outside of Arts plane and throw hammers and spanners at nasty old "jerry". "ArtKramr" wrote in message ... Subject: Future military fighters and guns - yes or no ? From: "Pete" Date: 3/2/04 4:48 PM Pacific Standard Time Message-id: "ArtKramr" wrote They also serve who stand and wait. How would they have done in combat?. We will never know will we? Art, it seems your dividing line between glory and those of a lesser caliber is combat/no combat. i.e. being shot at counts. Everything else somewhat less worthy. You know as well as most reading this that military personnel don't get to choose their war, or often even their job. No matter how many people volunteer for the Green Berets, the military *still* needs supply troops, bomb loaders, crew chiefs, etc, etc, etc. Of the many thousands of bombs I loaded in my career, none was dropped in anger. Not a one. Yet I served during several combat actions. Libya, Grenada, Panama, Somalia, Iraq. How did THAT happen? Why didn't I 'volunteer' for El Dorado Canyon, or Desert Storm? Because that's not the way it works anymore. My mission was elsewhere. Why didn't the F-16 pilots at Ramstein 'volunteer' for Desert Storm? Because that's not the way it works anymore. They had their own mission with the 86th FW in Germany. Not everyone gets to go, no matter how bad they want it. What would you say to Willie the Wolfs' crew chief? Or the bomb loaders? Or the supply troop that ensured you had good tires? Or the logistics officer ensuring the entire 8th AF had fresh tires? Would you call them a lesser caliber of men, simply because they were not shot at? No. You would shake their hand, buy them a beer, and thank them for helping you in *your* mission. They had theirs, you had yours. At least, that's what I hope you'd do. Now please extend the same respect to all those others who did serve honorably, volunteer or draftee, in war or in peace. Pete Yes. Everything you say is correct. But I must be totally honest. As we rushed down the runway and lifted off and Willie's wheels came up I would look down at those on the ground that we were leaving behind and I would think how they will still be alive tonight. And they would go home after the war and live a full rich lives with families and friends. And I didn't know for sure that I would ever see this airfield again or live to see the sunrise tomorrow morning. These are thoughts I had. And these thoughts create a thin line that separates those who were with me and those who stayed behind on the ground. And I can't deny in good conscience having those feelings. And I think many who flew with me had exactly the same feelings whether they admit it or not. It's a very thin line of separation. But a very line it is. Can you understand that? Arthur Kramer 344th BG 494th BS England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany Visit my WW II B-26 website at: http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer |
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