The Latest Military Airspace Grab: 700 Square Miles!

Does the military _ever_ return its airspace to public use?


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AVflash Volume 11, Number 7a -- February 14, 2005
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GA PILOTS TAKE ON MILITARY IN N.M.
New Mexico has some wide-open skies, but apparently there is not
enough room there for all the military and civilian pilots who want to
fly. The U.S. Air Force wants to add 700 square miles to the 2,600
square miles now used by the F-16 Falcons based at Cannon Air Force
Base. The airspace expansion would mean rerouting about 40 civilian
flights per day, and intrude onto GA routes between Albuquerque and
Roswell. "They've grabbed up so much airspace, it's going to be
dangerous for small, civilian aircraft," U.S. Pilots Association
President Steve Uslan told The Albuquerque Journal. "And that's a long
way around, and that means a lot of fuel and a lot of time wasted."
http://www.avweb.com/eletter/archive...ll.html#189168

On Mon, 14 Feb 2005 15:15:18 GMT, Larry Dighera
wrote:


Does the military _ever_ return its airspace to public use?\

Yes. It wouldn't take very long to list all of the military bases
closed in the last 25 years, which would quickly relate to a whole
bunch of no longer needed airspace and training routes.

AVflash Volume 11, Number 7a -- February 14, 2005
-------------------------------------------------------------------
GA PILOTS TAKE ON MILITARY IN N.M.
New Mexico has some wide-open skies, but apparently there is not
enough room there for all the military and civilian pilots who want to
fly. The U.S. Air Force wants to add 700 square miles to the 2,600
square miles now used by the F-16 Falcons based at Cannon Air Force
Base. The airspace expansion would mean rerouting about 40 civilian
flights per day, and intrude onto GA routes between Albuquerque and
Roswell. "They've grabbed up so much airspace, it's going to be
dangerous for small, civilian aircraft," U.S. Pilots Association
President Steve Uslan told The Albuquerque Journal. "And that's a long
way around, and that means a lot of fuel and a lot of time wasted."
http://www.avweb.com/eletter/archive...ll.html#189168

First, lets' consider how big the somewhat inflammatory number "700
square miles is in the big picture of all of New Mexico: it's a block
35 miles by 20 miles-- then consider how much airspace it might take
to run a 2-v-2 training engagement.

Then, recognize that special use airspace comes in a lot of flavors.
Some is restricted (which means don't go there without permission),
some is prohibited (which means don't go there OR ELSE!), some is
warning (which means go there, but be careful), and some is simply
advisory.

Most military training airspace is open for transit when not in use.
In other words, ATC can authorize passage if the area is not "HOT".

And, the airspace used for most military training is within positive
control, so it only effects IFR traffic on flight plans. Most GA
"small, civilian aircraft" (as opposed to corporate) is VFR and below
positive control, hence not effected.

Poor Steve, he doesn't want to be inconvenienced and he'd rather have
those guys and gals who strap their butts into the big iron go to war
to protect him without being properly trained. Maybe they need a
community relations program at Cannon in which guys like Steve get
taken for a ride so they could get a clue. About 30 minutes of
air-to-air should do the job.


Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
www.thunderchief.org
www.thundertales.blogspot.com

Larry Dighera wrote:
Does the military _ever_ return its airspace to public use?


Yes it does.

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AVflash Volume 11, Number 7a -- February 14, 2005
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GA PILOTS TAKE ON MILITARY IN N.M.

snip

It's hard to form an opinion on this without knowing what sort of
airspace they're looking for. Restricted? Prohibited? MOA? The U.S.
Pilots Assoc. (whoever they are) has decided that this will be
"dangerous for small, civilian aircraft", but doesn't really say why.

John Galban=====N4BQ (PA28-180)

"Larry Dighera" wrote in message
...


Does the military _ever_ return its airspace to public use?


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AVflash Volume 11, Number 7a -- February 14, 2005
-------------------------------------------------------------------

GA PILOTS TAKE ON MILITARY IN N.M.
New Mexico has some wide-open skies, but apparently there is not
enough room there for all the military and civilian pilots who want to
fly. The U.S. Air Force wants to add 700 square miles to the 2,600
square miles now used by the F-16 Falcons based at Cannon Air Force
Base. The airspace expansion would mean rerouting about 40 civilian
flights per day, and intrude onto GA routes between Albuquerque and
Roswell. "They've grabbed up so much airspace, it's going to be
dangerous for small, civilian aircraft," U.S. Pilots Association
President Steve Uslan told The Albuquerque Journal. "And that's a long
way around, and that means a lot of fuel and a lot of time wasted."
http://www.avweb.com/eletter/archive...ll.html#189168

Go to www.cannon.af.mil . There is a 421 page .pdf of the proposed areas.
The proposal creates a new MOA on the flight path. I lived in Roswell for
10
years. MOA's and Restricted areas pretty much encircle it. Try getting out
west bound, you have to fly to Albuquerque or El Paso before you can go on
to say, Phoenix. Roswell (Walker AFB) used to be a SAC base until the
Johnson years, when it was closed down. It is kind of neat flying eastbound
in the springtime. You can see outlines of ships and swastikas that have
been graded into the dirt for targets. Watch out for the 5,000' towers
though .

Allen

On Mon, 14 Feb 2005 18:58:00 GMT, "Allen"
wrote:

Go to www.cannon.af.mil . There is a 421 page .pdf of the proposed areas.
The proposal creates a new MOA on the flight path. I lived in Roswell for
10 years. MOA's and Restricted areas pretty much encircle it. Try getting out
west bound, you have to fly to Albuquerque or El Paso before you can go on
to say, Phoenix. Roswell (Walker AFB) used to be a SAC base until the
Johnson years, when it was closed down. It is kind of neat flying eastbound
in the springtime. You can see outlines of ships and swastikas that have
been graded into the dirt for targets. Watch out for the 5,000' towers
though .

A lot would depend upon when the ten years were. Roswell airport used
to be Walker AFB a long time ago. Dunno if they still do it, but after
Walker was closed and it became the Roswell industrial air park, they
did 747 training there for a number airlines.

You're right about airpace restrictions to the west, but most of that
is Holloman AFB space, not Cannon. Cannon stuff is almost all to the
N. The MOAs for Holloman don't start until about thirty miles W. of
Roswell or about thirty miles S. They have fairly high floors so VFR
traffic can transit quite comfortably (and the do, particularly
enroute to and from Ruidoso.)

W. of US highway 54, N. of Alamogordo you get into the White Sands
Missile Range which is restricted, not MOA. That goes from surface to
the moon, but transit is often allowed on weekends when it isn't in
use. S. of Alamogordo on both sides of US 54 from Alamogordo to El
Paso is restricted airspace, but used by the missile range, not by
flying operations. A block down along I-10 from ELP to Las Cruces is
used by the air defense training at Ft. Bliss.

There were a number of low level routes, fewer since Walker and Biggs
closed, since SAC operations were reduced, and fewer again since
Cannon converted from F-111s. But, they are warning not restricted.

The targets you mentions seeing aren't for live weapons delivery
unless you really penetrated some restricted airspace like Oscura
range. They probably date back to WW II.

Dunno I ever saw a 5,000' tower anywhere while flying in that country.
Since the surface elevation is over 4,000, you might be reading the
MSL of the tower--look in the parentheses to see the actual tower
height. Get much above 1200 feet and you've got a pretty significant
tower.

Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
www.thunderchief.org
www.thundertales.blogspot.com

"Larry Dighera" wrote in message
...

Does the military _ever_ return its airspace to public use?


Sure, every time they cease using it.



-------------------------------------------------------------------
AVflash Volume 11, Number 7a -- February 14, 2005
-------------------------------------------------------------------

GA PILOTS TAKE ON MILITARY IN N.M.
New Mexico has some wide-open skies, but apparently there is not
enough room there for all the military and civilian pilots who want to
fly. The U.S. Air Force wants to add 700 square miles to the 2,600
square miles now used by the F-16 Falcons based at Cannon Air Force
Base. The airspace expansion would mean rerouting about 40 civilian
flights per day, and intrude onto GA routes between Albuquerque and
Roswell.


About 40 civilian flights per day would require rerouting? I wonder how
that was determined?



"They've grabbed up so much airspace, it's going to be
dangerous for small, civilian aircraft," U.S. Pilots Association
President Steve Uslan told The Albuquerque Journal.


Dangerous? How so? Safety is the reason SUA is established, to either
separate nonparticipating aircraft from hazardous activities or to warn them
of potential hazards.



"And that's a long way around, and that means a lot of fuel and a lot of
time wasted."


Perhaps, but giving the area alone makes it appear bigger.

"Ed Rasimus" wrote in message
...

Yes. It wouldn't take very long to list all of the military bases
closed in the last 25 years, which would quickly relate to a whole
bunch of no longer needed airspace and training routes.


There used to be a Michigamee MOA just west of Sawyer AFB. The base is now
closed and the MOA no longer exists. Coincidence?



Most military training airspace is open for transit when not in use.


What SUA is nor open for transit when not in use?



In other words, ATC can authorize passage if the area is not "HOT".


ATC may be able to authorize passage if the area IS "hot", if it's not hot
authorization is not needed.

wrote in message
oups.com...

It's hard to form an opinion on this without knowing what sort of
airspace they're looking for. Restricted? Prohibited? MOA? The U.S.
Pilots Assoc. (whoever they are) has decided that this will be
"dangerous for small, civilian aircraft", but doesn't really say why.


Safety concerns are frequently cited by those that oppose some activity.
Such claims are often bogus.

"Ed Rasimus" wrote in message ...

Poor Steve, he doesn't want to be inconvenienced and he'd rather have
those guys and gals who strap their butts into the big iron go to war
to protect him without being properly trained. Maybe they need a
community relations program at Cannon in which guys like Steve get
taken for a ride so they could get a clue. About 30 minutes of
air-to-air should do the job.


Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
www.thunderchief.org
www.thundertales.blogspot.com

Airspace is airspace. There are no comments about anyone not wanting our pilots to be properly trained. There should be
a big chunk set aside, say, out over the pacific or something, for all the air to air training. They would be able to
turn and burn and go mach whatever without worrying too much (oh, they do that already?). If the folks need to do the
air to ground work, there is already plenty of space out in Nevada and Calif set aside for that. Why all the airspace
grabs these days?

On Mon, 14 Feb 2005 20:02:28 GMT, "Steven P. McNicoll"
wrote:


"Ed Rasimus" wrote in message
.. .

Yes. It wouldn't take very long to list all of the military bases
closed in the last 25 years, which would quickly relate to a whole
bunch of no longer needed airspace and training routes.


There used to be a Michigamee MOA just west of Sawyer AFB. The base is now
closed and the MOA no longer exists. Coincidence?

My point, exactly.

Most military training airspace is open for transit when not in use.

What SUA is nor open for transit when not in use?

Restricted and prohibited. Prohibited is open never and restricted
requires you to get approval prior to filing through.

In other words, ATC can authorize passage if the area is not "HOT".


ATC may be able to authorize passage if the area IS "hot", if it's not hot
authorization is not needed.

Don't go blundering through R-18xx or whatever simply because it isn't
NOTAM'd as active.

I think we're parsing a bit here. Bottom line, responding to the
original poster, is that special use airspace is a huge range of
options and no, it doesn't simply fall into a never ending demand from
that nasty ol' military to inconvenience Joe Bagadonutz in his Cessna
enroute from Norton's Corner to Punkin Center for a donut.




Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
www.thunderchief.org
www.thundertales.blogspot.com