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#101
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Phrase "landing runway" vs. "cleared to land"
There are three conditions for descending below MDA or continuing an approach beyond DA: 1) Runway environment in sight 2) Continuously in position to descend, etc... 3) Have the established flight visibility On Thu, 17 Jan 2008 09:44:38 -0800, "Al G" wrote: wrote in message .. . On Wed, 16 Jan 2008 19:41:03 GMT, "Jim Carter" wrote: "Robert M. Gary" wrote in message ... ... No, several planes did land. -Robert I think you're confusing with practicality with legality. OVC represents an overcast which represents a ceiling. 001 OVC is 100' ceiling which is less than any of the published minimums. 1/8 SM represents a visibility and on the ground that is less than RVR 2400 or any of the other published minimums. Planes landing have nothing to do with legality if someone breaks something here. Your original question was why the controller used "landing runway 22" instead of "cleared to land". You are correct that as a Part 91 flight you can begin the approach even if it is reported Zero-Zero, and you are allowed to land if you have the runway environment in site when you reach the decision point on the approach. You must also have the prescribed flight visibility Nope, just the runway environment. Al G |
#102
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Phrase "landing runway" vs. "cleared to land"
Approach lights are part of runway environment...
On Thu, 17 Jan 2008 11:39:46 -0800 (PST), "Robert M. Gary" wrote: On Jan 17, 11:28 am, "Al G" wrote: "Barry" wrote in message . .. You are correct that as a Part 91 flight you can begin the approach even if it is reported Zero-Zero, and you are allowed to land if you have the runway environment in site when you reach the decision point on the approach. You must also have the prescribed flight visibility Nope, just the runway environment. FAR 91.175 is pretty clear that the prescribed flight visibility is required to land: (d) Landing. No pilot operating an aircraft, except a military aircraft of the United States, may land that aircraft when-- (1) [refers to use of enhanced vision systems]; or (2) For all other part 91 operations and parts 121, 125, 129, and 135 operations, the flight visibility is less than the visibility prescribed in the standard instrument approach procedure being used. Also, as I've already posted, 91.175(c) prohibits even continuing below DH unless you have the prescribed visibility. My apologies, I thought you were talking about the Prevailing Visibility, as reported by the tower. The flight visibility, is determined by the pilot. The tower can be calling it 1/8 mile, RVR 600', but if I can see the environment from the DH, I have demonstrated 1/2 mile flight vis. But there is no requirement you see the environment from the DH, only the approach lights. -Robert, CFII |
#103
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Phrase "landing runway" vs. "cleared to land"
90-100 on the approach, when landing decision is made, pull the power and glide to the runway. In a Cherokee you'll be at touchdown speed at the Fixed Distance Marker, or damn near to it, with one notch of flaps. On Thu, 17 Jan 2008 11:14:57 -0800 (PST), " wrote: On Jan 17, 1:59 pm, "Barry" wrote: Applying full flaps when the runway is in sight seems to introduce overly complex reactions at the most critical phase of flight (low and slow). I think it's more important to stay stabilized on the approach while still in the clouds and on instruments - I don't want to change speed or configuration until I'm visual. Then the choices a 90 KIAS with approach flaps is nice and stable. 1) Full flaps at 1.3 Vs, stabilized all the way to the flare as a large airplane would - but that would mean 65 knots or so in a Cherokee 2) Full flaps at 90 or 100 knots - which would require a lot of power and be much different from all other phase of flight 3) No (or partial) flaps at 90 or 100 knots - my preference. Barry 90-100 knots to land? In a Cherokee? The NTSB reports are rife with airplanes wrecked after skidding off runways after touching down too fast (and there are probably 2x as many wrecked that the NTSB doesn't hear about). Landing too fast results in all sorts of bad endings. 1.3 x Vs1 fpr landing works every time, all the time. Add whatever for gusts and you don't have to change techniques, IFR or VFR. Dan |
#104
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Phrase "landing runway" vs. "cleared to land"
"Judah" wrote in message ... You mean controllers never forget? No, I mean what I write. |
#105
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Phrase "landing runway" vs. "cleared to land"
In rec.aviation.piloting Judah wrote:
"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in news:13osru9nohbb0b0 @corp.supernews.com: It doesn't work that way. You mean controllers never forget? Of course not, all controllers are superhuman beings that never forget, never get distracted, never make a mistake, never cough, sneeze, or blink, never have a bad day, always get enough sleep, never get ****ed at the boss, and don't catch a cold or any other disease that plagues mere mortals. If there was a procedural "error", the controller was poorly trained. QED. -- Jim Pennino Remove .spam.sux to reply. |
#106
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Phrase "landing runway" vs. "cleared to land"
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#107
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Phrase "landing runway" vs. "cleared to land"
On Jan 17, 9:15 pm, "Robert M. Gary" wrote:
I only teach in Monneys but I'm not sure why you would need to be faster without flaps. Even if I used flaps I wouldn't change the speed on the approach. Are you flying ILSs in a 172 at 50 knots such that you need flaps? Nope --100-90 KIAS in an A36, 90 KIAS in a 172. Approach flaps set in the A36 and 10 degrees in 172. But either way you have full flaps once you go visual so the landings distance is the same in each technique. While that may be the case in a particular Mooney or Cherokee or Skyhawk, this method will not work in a faster (more slippery) airplane. Try this next time -- see what happens to the ILS needles when your student drops full flaps once the runway is in sight. Once you're visual holding the needles in the middle is trivial because you are looking at the runway. Do you ever practice ILS all the way down to touchdown? If not, you may want to try it -- it's a good confidence boost. Dan |
#108
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Phrase "landing runway" vs. "cleared to land"
Some of them are never wrong... On Fri, 18 Jan 2008 05:25:03 GMT, wrote: In rec.aviation.piloting Judah wrote: "Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in news:13osru9nohbb0b0 @corp.supernews.com: It doesn't work that way. You mean controllers never forget? Of course not, all controllers are superhuman beings that never forget, never get distracted, never make a mistake, never cough, sneeze, or blink, never have a bad day, always get enough sleep, never get ****ed at the boss, and don't catch a cold or any other disease that plagues mere mortals. If there was a procedural "error", the controller was poorly trained. QED. |
#109
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Phrase "landing runway" vs. "cleared to land"
"Newps" wrote in message
. .. That was wrong on the controllers part. Wouldn't it be covered under here? Maybe he forgot to specifically say "runway xx unsafe?" 3-3-2. CLOSED/UNSAFE RUNWAY INFORMATION If an aircraft requests to takeoff, land, or touch-and-go on a closed or unsafe runway, inform the pilot the runway is closed or unsafe, and a. If the pilot persists in his/her request, quote him/her the appropriate parts of the NOTAM applying to the runway and inform him/her that a clearance cannot be issued. b. Then, if the pilot insists and in your opinion the intended operation would not adversely affect other traffic, inform him/her that the operation will be at his/her own risk. PHRASEOLOGYRUNWAY (runway number) CLOSED/UNSAFE. If appropriate, (quote NOTAM information), UNABLE TO ISSUE DEPARTURE/LANDING/TOUCHAND-GO CLEARANCE. DEPARTURE/LANDING/TOUCH-AND-GO WILL BE AT YOUR OWN RISK |
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