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Thunderbird accidents



 
 
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  #21  
Old September 15th 03, 07:56 PM
Juvat
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Marc Reeve posted:

What's to say? It was determined that the leader's (Maj. Norm Lowry)
aircraft sustained a mechanical malfunction that caused it to crash
(failure to pull up after completing a loop),...
I seem to recall that there might have been a loose bolt in Major
Lowry's stick that had caused the stick to jam at just the wrong time.


I believe the Board put the blame on a "bob-weight" that effected the
feel of the stick forces...no jamming that I recall. I was an
additional duty safety guy in my squadron, and briefed it. The T-38
FAIPs in the sqdn were skeptical (to put it mildly) of the "official"
explanation.

ISTR that the Accident Board also found that the Formation was lower
than briefed/expected at the apex of the "over the top" maneuver being
flown, and the findings speculated they could have pulled out if...

Sad day none the less.

Juvat
  #22  
Old September 15th 03, 08:42 PM
Ed Rasimus
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Juvat wrote:

Marc Reeve posted:

What's to say? It was determined that the leader's (Maj. Norm Lowry)
aircraft sustained a mechanical malfunction that caused it to crash
(failure to pull up after completing a loop),...
I seem to recall that there might have been a loose bolt in Major
Lowry's stick that had caused the stick to jam at just the wrong time.


I believe the Board put the blame on a "bob-weight" that effected the
feel of the stick forces...no jamming that I recall. I was an
additional duty safety guy in my squadron, and briefed it. The T-38
FAIPs in the sqdn were skeptical (to put it mildly) of the "official"
explanation.

ISTR that the Accident Board also found that the Formation was lower
than briefed/expected at the apex of the "over the top" maneuver being
flown, and the findings speculated they could have pulled out if...


You've got that right. I was at Holloman in Fighter Lead-In at the
time. As the only operator of T-38s in TAC, the 479th wing was tasked
for the "pilot member" and the "Flying Safety Officer member" of the
accident board.

The initial accident report came back as "pilot error" in that Major
Lowry allowed the formation to continue the maneuver after being at a
lower than required altitude at the top of the loop, thereby letting
the aircraft proceed to a point from which safe recovery was not
possible.

When briefed to General Creech, his comment was "Thunderbirds don't
make pilot errors." He directed that they come back with something
else. The second attempt introduced the "bob-weight" explanation. The
catch was that with 160 AT-38s on the flight line at Holloman, no one
had ever encountered the bob-weight before.

I flew F-4s with Norm Lowry in the 401st TFW at Torrejon. He was a
first rate fighter pilot and it is unfortunate that he was lost in
such a manner.



Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (ret)
***"When Thunder Rolled:
*** An F-105 Pilot Over N. Vietnam"
*** from Smithsonian Books
ISBN: 1588341038
  #23  
Old September 15th 03, 08:47 PM
John A. Weeks III
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In article , SA
wrote:

"While there were 36 major accidents that killed 24 Thunderbird pilots
between 1953 and 1981, there have been no fatalities and only one minor
accident since the 1982 tragedy -- a fact in which Creech took great pride."


Well, there was at least one fatality since 1982. A member of the
public crashed an auto through the airport gate and rammed one of
the F-16's as it was parked. I recall that the F-16 nose gear
collapsed in the impact, and the jet fell on the car, killing
the driver. I didn't look up the date, but I do recall this happening
at Selfridge in Michigan in the mid to late 90's.

-john-

--
================================================== ==================
John A. Weeks III 952-432-2708
Newave Communications
http://www.johnweeks.com
================================================== ==================
  #24  
Old September 15th 03, 09:08 PM
Dudley Henriques
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Default


"Juvat" wrote in message
...
Marc Reeve posted:

What's to say? It was determined that the leader's (Maj. Norm Lowry)
aircraft sustained a mechanical malfunction that caused it to crash
(failure to pull up after completing a loop),...
I seem to recall that there might have been a loose bolt in Major
Lowry's stick that had caused the stick to jam at just the wrong time.


I believe the Board put the blame on a "bob-weight" that effected the
feel of the stick forces...no jamming that I recall. I was an
additional duty safety guy in my squadron, and briefed it. The T-38
FAIPs in the sqdn were skeptical (to put it mildly) of the "official"
explanation.

ISTR that the Accident Board also found that the Formation was lower
than briefed/expected at the apex of the "over the top" maneuver being
flown, and the findings speculated they could have pulled out if...

Sad day none the less.

Juvat


The investigation was conducted at Holloman. Rog Parrish, Canterbury, and
others were involved. the FSO came from the 479th TFTW. It was a good and
truthful investigation. These people were first rate officers. Their initial
conclusions were VERY hard for them to submit, but they did the right thing.
They told the truth!! Their initial report was bounced by Creech and sent
back down for "further review". Creech insisted they "look again for another
reason"!! "Thunderbirds don't make mistakes" he said!!! The bob weight crap
was in the "revised" report sent back up to TAC. EVERYBODY knew it was bull
****!!! Creech accepted it immediately!
I'll tell you this much and you can take it to the bank! Norm didn't have a
"bob weight problem". There IS NO F*****G bobweight on the T38!!! Every
Thunderbird I know believes Norm simply blew the loop, and from my own
personal experience with low altitude vertical recoveries, and with personal
knowledge of the T38 in this environment specifically, I can tell you that
this is exactly what happened. From the Thunderbirds viewpoint, specifically
from an ex leader of the team who will remain nameless here for obvious
reasons, "It was a line abreast loop. When they went in I knew immediately
that lead impacted last...not FIRST!!!!!". And he was right. Anyone familiar
with the mechanics of a line abreast loop recovery lead foul up while flying
as a member of a jet acro team would know IMMEDIATELY the implication of
this simple fact!! It showed that way on the video tape taken at the com
trailer, but the tape vanished!!!!
Let me put it another way if I can. Creech isn't really the most popular guy
at the Thunderbird reunions....if you get my drift!!

Dudley Henriques
International Fighter Pilots Fellowship
Commercial Pilot/CFI
Retired


  #25  
Old September 15th 03, 10:01 PM
Guy Alcala
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Dudley Henriques wrote:

Let me put it another way if I can. Creech isn't really the most popular guy
at the Thunderbird reunions....if you get my drift!!


Seeing as how he died August 26th, I don't think that will be an issue anymo

http://tbaa.org/gen_creech.htm

Guy



  #26  
Old September 15th 03, 10:12 PM
Dudley Henriques
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Guy Alcala" wrote in message
. ..
Dudley Henriques wrote:

Let me put it another way if I can. Creech isn't really the most popular

guy
at the Thunderbird reunions....if you get my drift!!


Seeing as how he died August 26th, I don't think that will be an issue

anymo

http://tbaa.org/gen_creech.htm

Guy


Excuse me. That should have read, "He WASN'T the most popular guy at the
Thunderbird reunions. My somewhat "limited" connections with him died many
years ago, obviously before he did!
Dudley Henriques
International Fighter Pilots Fellowship
Commercial Pilot/CFI
Retired



  #27  
Old September 15th 03, 10:43 PM
Juvat
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Ed Rasimus posted:

The initial accident report came back as "pilot error" ...


That was pretty much the attitude when everybody looked at the details
of the Final report...especially the T-38 FAIPs.

When briefed to General Creech, his comment was "Thunderbirds don't
make pilot errors." He directed that they come back with something
else.


The good general was also known to "red line" Lts and Capts that
crashed jets. A co-worker jumped out of an F-16 at Nellis as a 1Lt,
Creech had him grounded and shipped out, he went to WC-130s. The cause
turned out to be IIRC, Tower Shaft failure, the first incident. After
Creech retired, the criminal was allowed back in Vipers. He just
retired from the CO ANG.



  #28  
Old September 16th 03, 04:52 AM
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Hey, thanks for the tip, genius!

If you took your own advice, you'd see that there is very little out there.
Are you always this sharp or was this just a good day?

"Tex Houston" wrote in message
...

wrote in message
.. .
I am looking for information on the following Thunderbird accidents.

Any
information would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.

F-100D breakup at Laughlin AFB in 1967
Accident a Hill AFB in May (?) 1981
Diamond crash at Indian Springs in 1982


Go to www.google.com and enter "Thunderbirds" "Accidents" "Indian Springs"

Go to www.google.com and enter "Thunderbirds" "Accidenys" "Laughlin"

See how simple life is?

Tex







  #29  
Old September 16th 03, 05:09 AM
Marc Reeve
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

John A. Weeks III wrote:

In article , SA
wrote:

"While there were 36 major accidents that killed 24 Thunderbird pilots
between 1953 and 1981, there have been no fatalities and only one minor
accident since the 1982 tragedy -- a fact in which Creech took great
pride."


Well, there was at least one fatality since 1982. A member of the
public crashed an auto through the airport gate and rammed one of
the F-16's as it was parked. I recall that the F-16 nose gear
collapsed in the impact, and the jet fell on the car, killing
the driver. I didn't look up the date, but I do recall this happening
at Selfridge in Michigan in the mid to late 90's.

They were only counting Thunderbirds fatalities on that page, not Joe
Drunken Driver (not that the two are mutually exclusive).

-Marc

--
Marc Reeve
actual email address after removal of 4s & spaces is
c4m4r4a4m4a4n a4t c4r4u4z4i4o d4o4t c4o4m
  #30  
Old September 16th 03, 05:22 PM
Mark
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Rumor had it that Creech personally had the one and only videotape of the
accident.

Mark


"Dudley Henriques" wrote in message
hlink.net...

"Juvat" wrote in message
...
Marc Reeve posted:

What's to say? It was determined that the leader's (Maj. Norm Lowry)
aircraft sustained a mechanical malfunction that caused it to crash
(failure to pull up after completing a loop),...
I seem to recall that there might have been a loose bolt in Major
Lowry's stick that had caused the stick to jam at just the wrong time.


I believe the Board put the blame on a "bob-weight" that effected the
feel of the stick forces...no jamming that I recall. I was an
additional duty safety guy in my squadron, and briefed it. The T-38
FAIPs in the sqdn were skeptical (to put it mildly) of the "official"
explanation.

ISTR that the Accident Board also found that the Formation was lower
than briefed/expected at the apex of the "over the top" maneuver being
flown, and the findings speculated they could have pulled out if...

Sad day none the less.

Juvat


The investigation was conducted at Holloman. Rog Parrish, Canterbury, and
others were involved. the FSO came from the 479th TFTW. It was a good and
truthful investigation. These people were first rate officers. Their

initial
conclusions were VERY hard for them to submit, but they did the right

thing.
They told the truth!! Their initial report was bounced by Creech and sent
back down for "further review". Creech insisted they "look again for

another
reason"!! "Thunderbirds don't make mistakes" he said!!! The bob weight

crap
was in the "revised" report sent back up to TAC. EVERYBODY knew it was

bull
****!!! Creech accepted it immediately!
I'll tell you this much and you can take it to the bank! Norm didn't have

a
"bob weight problem". There IS NO F*****G bobweight on the T38!!! Every
Thunderbird I know believes Norm simply blew the loop, and from my own
personal experience with low altitude vertical recoveries, and with

personal
knowledge of the T38 in this environment specifically, I can tell you that
this is exactly what happened. From the Thunderbirds viewpoint,

specifically
from an ex leader of the team who will remain nameless here for obvious
reasons, "It was a line abreast loop. When they went in I knew immediately
that lead impacted last...not FIRST!!!!!". And he was right. Anyone

familiar
with the mechanics of a line abreast loop recovery lead foul up while

flying
as a member of a jet acro team would know IMMEDIATELY the implication of
this simple fact!! It showed that way on the video tape taken at the com
trailer, but the tape vanished!!!!
Let me put it another way if I can. Creech isn't really the most popular

guy
at the Thunderbird reunions....if you get my drift!!

Dudley Henriques
International Fighter Pilots Fellowship
Commercial Pilot/CFI
Retired




 




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