opinions on a K13

I disagree with the statement regarding maintenance.
A fibreglass ship will always cost less to maintain
than a fabric over metal ship.

I don’t believe a K13 is move forgiving than a Twin
Astir or K21 for training purposes. And, in the unlikely
event of an accident I would rather be in a glass ship.

Having said that… If all you want to do is bash the
circuit – stick with the 13. No better than glass
once you are downwind.



At 05:42 28 April 2004, Elzee wrote:

'Scott Macleman' wrote in message
...
Just wondering what some of the more experienced people
think.

Keep the ASK13.

I am biased as I went solo in one .. Glass ships are
going to get you into a lot
more trouble, whereas the K13 will always be a more
forgiving platform for
training. Plus you are already ahead in terms of trailer
and maintenance of a
familiar piece of equipment versus the servicing of
an FRP ship. Insurance costs
will be higher too I'm sure!

Keep the ASK13

HTH

elZee

In article , Ben Flewett
writes
I disagree with the statement regarding maintenance.
A fibreglass ship will always cost less to maintain
than a fabric over metal ship.

I don’t believe a K13 is move forgiving than a Twin
Astir or K21 for training purposes. And, in the unlikely
event of an accident I would rather be in a glass ship.

Isn't it rather difficult to get a K21 to spin? So it must be next to
impossible to do spin training in the glass job?
--
Mike Lindsay

Mike Lindsay wrote:
In article , Ben Flewett
writes
I disagree with the statement regarding maintenance.
A fibreglass ship will always cost less to maintain
than a fabric over metal ship.

I don?t believe a K13 is move forgiving than a Twin
Astir or K21 for training purposes. And, in the unlikely
event of an accident I would rather be in a glass ship.

Isn't it rather difficult to get a K21 to spin? So it must be next to
impossible to do spin training in the glass job?

An instructor asked me to do spin in a Janus. I can assure you there is
no problem entering spin in a Janus, that speed builds up quite fast,
and that you are happy to get out of spin as fast as possible.
But you are right, the ASK13 is perfect for doing spin. It demonstrates
spin much more clearly than the ASK21! However, and contrarily to what
has been stated above by our UK friends, here in France people have
generally sold all their ASK13 to buy replacement ASK21 or Twin Astirs
(at least those who were rich enough). Is it true that the K13 allows
to stay in the air in weak conditions when plastic gilders cannot?
Sincerely i doubt that, particularly if there is the lightest wind, you
will be out of luck, while with a Janus for example, you can still go
against the wind and use flaps in light thermals.


--

Michel TALON

However, and contrarily to what
has been stated above by our UK friends, here in France people have
generally sold all their ASK13 to buy replacement ASK21 or Twin Astirs
(at least those who were rich enough).

Well, not generally - A number of large and "rich" french clubs are keeping
their K13's and btw their market value is not decreasing.
K13s are much cheaper to purchase but do require skilled staff for
maintenance, so the large clubs tend to keep their K13s while small club
tend to move to plastic.

Having been trainee and trainer on both K13 and Twin - IMHO the K13 is much
more demonstrative and forgiving for instruction and first solo flights.
However a Twin would be more versatile for XC purposes

Jean

Jean wrote:
However, and contrarily to what
has been stated above by our UK friends, here in France people have
generally sold all their ASK13 to buy replacement ASK21 or Twin Astirs
(at least those who were rich enough).

Well, not generally - A number of large and "rich" french clubs are keeping
their K13's and btw their market value is not decreasing.
K13s are much cheaper to purchase but do require skilled staff for
maintenance, so the large clubs tend to keep their K13s while small club
tend to move to plastic.

Well i mean Moret, Buno, Beynes, Chartres, Cherence don't qualify as small
clubs and have moved plastic long ago. Are you speaking clubs in the
Alps?


Having been trainee and trainer on both K13 and Twin - IMHO the K13 is much
more demonstrative and forgiving for instruction and first solo flights.
However a Twin would be more versatile for XC purposes

Jean




--

Michel TALON

Jean wrote:
However, and contrarily to what
has been stated above by our UK friends, here in France people have
generally sold all their ASK13 to buy replacement ASK21 or Twin Astirs
(at least those who were rich enough).

Well, not generally - A number of large and "rich" french clubs are keeping
their K13's and btw their market value is not decreasing.
K13s are much cheaper to purchase but do require skilled staff for
maintenance, so the large clubs tend to keep their K13s while small club
tend to move to plastic.

Well i mean Moret, Buno, Beynes, Chartres, Cherence or Montpellier
don't qualify as small clubs and have moved plastic long ago. Are you
speaking clubs in the Alps?


Having been trainee and trainer on both K13 and Twin - IMHO the K13 is much
more demonstrative and forgiving for instruction and first solo flights.
However a Twin would be more versatile for XC purposes

Jean




--

Michel TALON

I certainly hope either Scott or the prickly Robert will post as to how
this is resolved. This is better than any soap opera on the tee vee

RAS WANTS TO KNOW!!!!!!!!



"Scott Macleman" wrote in message
...
I am a member of the council for my University gliding club - fairly new
compared to most of the people in this forum, but hey i enjoy it.

We currently own a K13 aircraft with a (fairly) serviceable trailer.

we have been offered an Acro with no trailer, and in order to buy it we
will need to sell our K13.

I was wondering whether it would be worth it - because the deal we have
been offered for the acro is not massivly great. and there are several
drawbacks.

mainly -

asking for a grant from the university.
selling the k13
not having a trailer with it.

Just wondering what some of the more experienced people think.

Thanks,

Sorry Bill, the ATC world is not specialised, it just
teaches people the basics, enough to fly solo, that
is all it sets out to do and it achieves it with the
Grob Acro. My point was that it is no more difficult
to be taught to fly in an Acro than it is in a K13.
The Acro is nearer to most GRP single seaters which
your soaring members will fly.

One question, as an instructor you are given the choice
between sitting for 8 hours in the back seat of a K13
or a Grob Acro. Which would you choose, for me there
is no contest, sitting for any length of time in the
K13 would require a large spend on an osteopath.

The question was not about a fleet but which was more
suitable for a clubs only 2 seater. For my money, and
I have flown most the Acro is the most suitable.

I learned to fly in a T31 and instucted in them for
many years, I would not recommend them for training
today.

As an aside the best and most effective 'glider' I
have flown for teaching is without doubt the Venture,
so I am not against wood or metal and fabric per se.
Of course the CAA rules do not allow their use in that
way in the wider world.

DJ 401

At 14:48 28 April 2004, W.J. \bill\ Dean \u.K.\. wrote:
It may well be that in the rather specialised world
of the Air Training
Corps the Grob Viking does a good job for your pupils
aged under 21. Of
the over 100 pupils you solo'd in the Grob, how many
went on to get their
Silver 'C'?

However, Lasham has had in their fleet a K21 and a
Grob, in fact I think
they have had two successive Grobs. Nevertheless,
Lasham still continue to
use the K13 as their main training glider, they have
no plans to replace
them and are re-furbishing them. They currently have
1 Duo-Discus, 1
ASK21, 1 Grob Acro and 9 K13s. They have paid a deposit
on a DG1000, this
is not to replace a K13, they are thinking of changing
the order to a turbo
DG1000. Lasham have operated the K21, the Grob and
the K13s quite long
enough to evaluate them as training machines, and from
the maintenance point
of view.

Lasham not only sends pupils solo, they also teach
them to soar, fly
cross-country and win competitions at world level so
they must be doing
something right!

W.J. (Bill) Dean (U.K.).
Remove 'ic' to reply.


'Don Johnstone' wrote in
message ...

The original post was asking for an opinion on the
relative suitability of a Grob Acro versus a K13 from
someone with experience. I would have thought that
was sensible. Whether it was sensible to seek that
on ras is perhaps open to debate.

To answer the original question, as always it depends.
I have instructed extensively on both with over 2500
launches in a Grob Acro and sending over 100 students
under the age of 21 solo in it. It is probably one
of the best ab initio training gliders I have even
flown. Its main rival, the ASK21 is, like all Scheicher
gliders, better harmonised and probably slightly easier
to teach in, however the Grob is far more robust.
(I
have never seen the disappearing nosewheel syndrome
in a Grob).

If you just want to teach people to fly solo and not
go off soaring then either glider will do. If however
you want to teach beyond that the Grob is the proper
option. If you are teaching people and are expecting
them to go straight into a GRP glider as their first
single seat machine then the Grob is the best option.
If you want to reduce your long term maintenance costs
then the Grob is the best option (You don't have to
recover a Grob every few years, and the gelcoat is
almost bomb proof). If you want to reduce your insurance
bill then the K13 may be the way to go. If you want
a much wider and larger cockpit loading option then
the Grob is the answer.

In my opinion there really is no contest. The K13
was
a fine glider, in it's day, and still is in some ways
but for overall robustness, suitability for training
for GRP flying, and the ability to provide realistic
xcountry training it has had it's day. The Grob
is
the best option even if you have to find a trailer
for it.

The K21 is quite hard to spin except when it's very
close to the rear CofG ..

From a training perspective the K21 is seen as a little
too benign by some UK instructors, although it's incredibly
tough as an airframe..

Twin Astirs tend to be a little fragile in the u/c
department for intensive ab-initio work, and they can
be hard work to soar in weak conditions..

My current favourite is the DG1000 which the guys at
Sutton Bank were happy to let me fly a few weeks ago
...

Mark


At 09:18 29 April 2004, Michel Talon wrote:
Mike Lindsay wrote:
In article , Ben Flewett
writes
I disagree with the statement regarding maintenance.
A fibreglass ship will always cost less to maintain
than a fabric over metal ship.

I don?t believe a K13 is move forgiving than a Twin
Astir or K21 for training purposes. And, in the unlikely
event of an accident I would rather be in a glass ship.

Isn't it rather difficult to get a K21 to spin? So
it must be next to
impossible to do spin training in the glass job?

An instructor asked me to do spin in a Janus. I can
assure you there is
no problem entering spin in a Janus, that speed builds
up quite fast,
and that you are happy to get out of spin as fast as
possible.
But you are right, the ASK13 is perfect for doing spin.
It demonstrates
spin much more clearly than the ASK21! However, and
contrarily to what
has been stated above by our UK friends, here in France
people have
generally sold all their ASK13 to buy replacement ASK21
or Twin Astirs
(at least those who were rich enough). Is it true that
the K13 allows
to stay in the air in weak conditions when plastic
gilders cannot?
Sincerely i doubt that, particularly if there is the
lightest wind, you
will be out of luck, while with a Janus for example,
you can still go
against the wind and use flaps in light thermals.


--

Michel TALON

The K21 is quite hard to spin except when it's very
close to the rear CofG ..

From a training perspective the K21 is seen as a little
too benign by some UK instructors, although it's incredibly
tough as an airframe..

Twin Astirs tend to be a little fragile in the u/c
department for intensive ab-initio work, and they can
be hard work to soar in weak conditions..

My current favourite is the DG1000 which the guys at
Sutton Bank were happy to let me fly a few weeks ago
...

Mark


At 09:18 29 April 2004, Michel Talon wrote:
Mike Lindsay wrote:
In article , Ben Flewett
writes
I disagree with the statement regarding maintenance.
A fibreglass ship will always cost less to maintain
than a fabric over metal ship.

I don?t believe a K13 is move forgiving than a Twin
Astir or K21 for training purposes. And, in the unlikely
event of an accident I would rather be in a glass ship.

Isn't it rather difficult to get a K21 to spin? So
it must be next to
impossible to do spin training in the glass job?

An instructor asked me to do spin in a Janus. I can
assure you there is
no problem entering spin in a Janus, that speed builds
up quite fast,
and that you are happy to get out of spin as fast as
possible.
But you are right, the ASK13 is perfect for doing spin.
It demonstrates
spin much more clearly than the ASK21! However, and
contrarily to what
has been stated above by our UK friends, here in France
people have
generally sold all their ASK13 to buy replacement ASK21
or Twin Astirs
(at least those who were rich enough). Is it true that
the K13 allows
to stay in the air in weak conditions when plastic
gilders cannot?
Sincerely i doubt that, particularly if there is the
lightest wind, you
will be out of luck, while with a Janus for example,
you can still go
against the wind and use flaps in light thermals.


--

Michel TALON