A Call to Arms from Richard VanGrunsven

On Mar 8, 12:45*pm, wrote:
The original builder can do any maintenance or modification he desires
while the buyer has to follow the same rules as if he had bought a
Cessna or Piper.

Not true. It's actually very simple: Anyone can do anything to any
homebuilt, except sign off the annual condition inspection. That is
the only privilege conferred by the Repairman certificate. Someone
who doesn't hold the Repairman certificate for the particular plane in
question must have the annual condition inspection signed off by an
A&P. Any A&P will do; no IA required.

Ken

On Sat, 8 Mar 2008 10:12:35 +0000 (UTC), Bertie the Bunyip wrote:

Yet I can't buy a completely built kit/plans plane.

Sure you can.

See any airplanes for sale web site.

You just can't buy one and have the same privilges as the original
builder.

--
Jim Pennino

Ok, what rights do I lose and why do I lose them?

the origianl builder is the manufacturer. He can effect any maintenance
or repeair on the airplane he likes...You buy it , you can't.

Th ereason is pretty obvious. He has demonstrated he knows what he is
doing and has effectively been issued a resticted airframe or airframe
and powerplant licence.

Bertie

The right to self-maintain is no loss of right for me. They call the police
when I simply look at a power tool. The ability to maintain isn't directly
tied to the ability to install (I've dropped engines, I couldn't tune a
fork).
--
Remove numbers for gmail and for God's sake it ain't "gee" either!

WJRFlyBoy wrote in
:

On Sat, 8 Mar 2008 10:12:35 +0000 (UTC), Bertie the Bunyip wrote:

Yet I can't buy a completely built kit/plans plane.

Sure you can.

See any airplanes for sale web site.

You just can't buy one and have the same privilges as the original
builder.

--
Jim Pennino

Ok, what rights do I lose and why do I lose them?

the origianl builder is the manufacturer. He can effect any
maintenance or repeair on the airplane he likes...You buy it , you
can't.

Th ereason is pretty obvious. He has demonstrated he knows what he is
doing and has effectively been issued a resticted airframe or
airframe and powerplant licence.

Bertie

The right to self-maintain is no loss of right for me. They call the
police when I simply look at a power tool. The ability to maintain
isn't directly tied to the ability to install (I've dropped engines, I
couldn't tune a fork).



He he


Bertie

On Sat, 08 Mar 2008 01:29:05 -0600, cavelamb himself wrote:

Cessna goes to China to get the Skyscraper at a reasonable price. Yet we
have USA built planes off better value that are restricted from my purchase
because I can't flip fiberglass?


Actually, jst to keep the record straight, you CAN buy an X-AB airplane.
But the biulder can not build and register another of the same kind.

That puts him in unfair competition with the certified manufacturers
who went to the expense and trouble to certify their airplanes.

Appreciate the comment. If certification has value, why does this put him
in unfair competition?

Because it takes time and money.

Which they (Cessna in this e.g.) reclaim in a higher price and profit. If
not, then the value of certification is seriously in question.

And "flipping" fiber is a racing term for Corvette rebuilds.

Your troll,

WJRFlyboy
--
Remove numbers for gmail and for God's sake it ain't "gee" either!

On Sat, 8 Mar 2008 10:18:02 +0000 (UTC), Bertie the Bunyip wrote:

Actually, jst to keep the record straight, you CAN buy an X-AB
airplane. But the biulder can not build and register another of the
same kind.

That puts him in unfair competition with the certified manufacturers
who went to the expense and trouble to certify their airplanes.

Appreciate the comment. If certification has value, why does this put
him in unfair competition?

Because it cost many millions to certify an airplane. It doesn;'t cost
anything to kit a homebuilt. We're not just talking about RVs here. There
are some major crooks and nutjobs out there selling dreams. Peopkle have
died in them. Now, if you want to build one of these yourself, and you can
build anything you want, BTW, the FAA really only looks to see if it was
put together properly, then off you go and more power to you. That's
experimenting. But to try and sell some of these things as capable
airplanes would be criminal. I think some of the kitplanes around are
crimes against nature as it is, but there ya go..

OK, so the FAA allows these planes under the guise of "experimental" they
certify planes and then there are experimental planes that are as good or
better than the certified planes (not talking engines whose
"certifications" are all over the place).

Is that about right?

If so, 1) where do you find the output which points to "good" kit/plan
planes and 2) what good is the FAA doing (other than restricting the good
builds for market related purposes)?

The RVs could probably be certified pretty easily. A couple of air forces
are even using them as trainers and there have been thousands built, so a
lot of th eR&D is already done.


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On Sat, 08 Mar 2008 09:46:15 -0600, cavelamb himself wrote:

Morgans wrote:
"cavelamb himself" wrote

Actually, jst to keep the record straight, you CAN buy an X-AB airplane.
But the biulder can not build and register another of the same kind.

Really? Where did you get that information? Do you know of a case where a
builder was denied the second airplane's airworthiness permit?

That was pretty common interpretation of this mess when I was a kid.

Back when FAA was doing "pre-close" inspections, they were a lot more
involved in the process.

I humbly suggest that if you are going to come in here with that handle,
you need to make a much more active effort at educating yourself.

This is a very technical forum.

And there are some very talented and knowledgeable people who hang here.

They mostly don't care for trolls.

For what it's worth...

WJRFlyboy ))
--
Remove numbers for gmail and for God's sake it ain't "gee" either!

WJRFlyBoy wrote in
:

On Sat, 8 Mar 2008 10:18:02 +0000 (UTC), Bertie the Bunyip wrote:

Actually, jst to keep the record straight, you CAN buy an X-AB
airplane. But the biulder can not build and register another of the
same kind.

That puts him in unfair competition with the certified
manufacturers who went to the expense and trouble to certify their
airplanes.

Appreciate the comment. If certification has value, why does this
put him in unfair competition?

Because it cost many millions to certify an airplane. It doesn;'t
cost anything to kit a homebuilt. We're not just talking about RVs
here. There are some major crooks and nutjobs out there selling
dreams. Peopkle have died in them. Now, if you want to build one of
these yourself, and you can build anything you want, BTW, the FAA
really only looks to see if it was put together properly, then off
you go and more power to you. That's experimenting. But to try and
sell some of these things as capable airplanes would be criminal. I
think some of the kitplanes around are crimes against nature as it
is, but there ya go..

OK, so the FAA allows these planes under the guise of "experimental"
they certify planes and then there are experimental planes that are as
good or better than the certified planes (not talking engines whose
"certifications" are all over the place).

Is that about right?

If so, 1) where do you find the output which points to "good" kit/plan
planes and 2) what good is the FAA doing (other than restricting the
good builds for market related purposes)?


The FAA made the rules in the late forties to accomodate guys who wanted
to make little putt putts like Piets and Longsters in their garages. The
rules haven;t changed significantly since then. You can draw out any
kind of airplane powered by any kind of engine you like on the back of a
napkin, go out and get material to build it from anywhere you like. you
can make it out of old beer cans if you like. The design can be as nutty
as you like. You're unlikely to get anything too stupid past them, but
you're pretty much given Carte Blanche in the design and matrials
department. So, you start to build it and then you can decide , before
you've even got a couple of opieces glued togethether you decide you
want to share this marvelous beast with the world. You advertise it on
the net and before you know it people ( crazy ones) are throwing money
at you asking you to build one for them. Lots of people have been burned
in many ways through this sort of activity over the years and there's
nothing to distinguish a VanGruven airplane from one of these things
legally.



Bertie

On Sat, 08 Mar 2008 14:54:42 GMT, badbaz wrote:

Yes I'm learning things and some would call that education which it
is, but I'll state outright, that has nothing to do with me building.
I'm building because I like to do it! I'd get more enjoyment out of
building another because I could do it more efficiently, faster, and
cheaper. HOWEVER if I ever do get the thing finished and I'm able to
fly it, my main/only reason for building at that time would be "flying
an airplane I constructed myself".

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

Being an old fart I remember when Cessna, Piper &co. nearly went belly up
due to ambulance chasers. Cessna even shut down its production lines for
piston aircraft because of it.

Lived in Wichita a few years, remember this.

this is where the expermentals saved their
collective bacons as the lawyers found that individuals didn't have big
cheque books to raid. Cessna only recommencet production after congress
changed the litigation laws, now if become a pro builder to the lawyers you
are a manufactures so whach out!

Let me see if I understand, at some (unknown) point, a builder who sells
becomes a manufacturer for reasons of litigation.

That's a good point. Then as a Buyer, I might have rights of recourse on
the designer, builder and, perhaps, the engine (re) manufacturer. Hmmm.
Case law anyone?
--
Remove numbers for gmail and for God's sake it ain't "gee" either!

"WJRFlyBoy" wrote in message
news
On Sat, 08 Mar 2008 09:46:15 -0600, cavelamb himself wrote:

Morgans wrote:
"cavelamb himself" wrote

Actually, jst to keep the record straight, you CAN buy an X-AB airplane.
But the biulder can not build and register another of the same kind.

Really? Where did you get that information? Do you know of a case
where a
builder was denied the second airplane's airworthiness permit?

That was pretty common interpretation of this mess when I was a kid.

Back when FAA was doing "pre-close" inspections, they were a lot more
involved in the process.

I humbly suggest that if you are going to come in here with that handle,
you need to make a much more active effort at educating yourself.

This is a very technical forum.

And there are some very talented and knowledgeable people who hang here.

They mostly don't care for trolls.

For what it's worth...

WJRFlyboy ))
--

I presume that you are new around here.

Peter

On Sat, 8 Mar 2008 21:01:53 +0000 (UTC), Bertie the Bunyip wrote:

OK, so the FAA allows these planes under the guise of "experimental"
they certify planes and then there are experimental planes that are as
good or better than the certified planes (not talking engines whose
"certifications" are all over the place).

Is that about right?

If so, 1) where do you find the output which points to "good" kit/plan
planes and 2) what good is the FAA doing (other than restricting the
good builds for market related purposes)?

The FAA made the rules in the late forties to accomodate guys who wanted
to make little putt putts like Piets and Longsters in their garages. The
rules haven;t changed significantly since then. You can draw out any
kind of airplane powered by any kind of engine you like on the back of a
napkin, go out and get material to build it from anywhere you like. you
can make it out of old beer cans if you like. The design can be as nutty
as you like. You're unlikely to get anything too stupid past them, but
you're pretty much given Carte Blanche in the design and matrials
department. So, you start to build it and then you can decide , before
you've even got a couple of opieces glued togethether you decide you
want to share this marvelous beast with the world. You advertise it on
the net and before you know it people ( crazy ones) are throwing money
at you asking you to build one for them. Lots of people have been burned
in many ways through this sort of activity over the years and there's
nothing to distinguish a VanGruven airplane from one of these things
legally.

Bertie

Thx for that.
--
Remove numbers for gmail and for God's sake it ain't "gee" either!