TOW PLANE Accident

I'm curious as to how many clubs or tow pilots have really trained and cut a glider loose?
[You are going to lose a tow rope every time you do that]


Most tow pilots have talked about it but never experienced it in the heat of the moment.
[Thank you, God]

We pull an unexpected release on our glider students. When do the tug pilots get the same unexpected training?
[When you screw up back there. Ain't no instructor in the back seat of a Pawnee]

[ROY]

This is the post from reddit from the son of the pilot. He has actually seen the footage. Interestingly, he mentions health as a possible issue.
mrmrkester • 18d
The fatality in this accident was my father.

I have viewed the GoPro video in question a million times (doesn’t show impact) and to blame the accident solely on that doesn’t really make complete sense.

The towplane goes down by itself before the kiting really takes place. My dad was a pretty healthy guy but I’m more likely to believe in a medical issue before solely blaming the glider instructor. I’m not the NTSB so I won’t do their job, but it just doesn’t all add up.

Our Pawnee had the ability to cut the rope from the towplane end plus my dad makes no radio calls?

I’m a member of a different soaring club near my university and they tried replicating the accident (at altitude) and the tow pilot didn’t report much difficulty in controlling the Pawnee.

I’m a CFI-G myself, but if you ever lose sight of the towplane please release immediately. Had this pilot done this I’m not convinced the result would have been much different, but perhaps would have given my father a better chance of survival.

What we do carries an inherit risk, especially when flying behind a rope of someone else.

Please be safe out there.

Have you ever lost close friends or family while they were acting as PIC?

There is powerful psychology at play. Wanting to believe that your friend or loved one was incapacitated is as normal as it gets.

T8


On Monday, March 11, 2019 at 10:07:23 PM UTC-4, Charlie Quebec wrote:
This is the post from reddit from the son of the pilot. He has actually seen the footage. Interestingly, he mentions health as a possible issue.
mrmrkester • 18d
The fatality in this accident was my father.

I have viewed the GoPro video in question a million times (doesn’t show impact) and to blame the accident solely on that doesn’t really make complete sense.

The towplane goes down by itself before the kiting really takes place. My dad was a pretty healthy guy but I’m more likely to believe in a medical issue before solely blaming the glider instructor. I’m not the NTSB so I won’t do their job, but it just doesn’t all add up.

Our Pawnee had the ability to cut the rope from the towplane end plus my dad makes no radio calls?

I’m a member of a different soaring club near my university and they tried replicating the accident (at altitude) and the tow pilot didn’t report much difficulty in controlling the Pawnee.

I’m a CFI-G myself, but if you ever lose sight of the towplane please release immediately. Had this pilot done this I’m not convinced the result would have been much different, but perhaps would have given my father a better chance of survival.

What we do carries an inherit risk, especially when flying behind a rope of someone else.

Please be safe out there.

On Monday, March 11, 2019 at 5:27:02 PM UTC-4, Duster wrote:
Video stills recorded the tug's elevator position.

Where are you able to see the video footage?

BG

See if you can open these files.

https://dms.ntsb.gov/public/62000-62...018/622033.pdf
https://dms.ntsb.gov/public/62000-62...018/622036.pdf
For the full video, make a FOIA request to the NTSB or via the FAA. They've been willing to assist, though there are nominal fees in some cases. In my experience, they won't ask for a justification, though providing one might help.

Everything you need is in the video analysis. Good job by the analyst. Experienced tow pilots & glider instructors can figure it out from here.

T8

Yes, I lost a friend in a tug accident. The evidence so far is open to several interpretations as far as Im concerned.

When I had the power loss mentioned earlier in this thread, my wife and
I pulled the releases almost simultaneously.Â* I did a "stick left, stick
right, release pull" and looked over my shoulder.Â* She was already
gone.Â* Later that day, another man and I went looking for the rope and
found it literally right off the end of the runway.

On 3/11/2019 7:31 PM, Roy B. wrote:
I'm curious as to how many clubs or tow pilots have really trained and cut a glider loose?
[You are going to lose a tow rope every time you do that]


Most tow pilots have talked about it but never experienced it in the heat of the moment.
[Thank you, God]

We pull an unexpected release on our glider students. When do the tug pilots get the same unexpected training?
[When you screw up back there. Ain't no instructor in the back seat of a Pawnee]

[ROY]

--
Dan, 5J

Reaction was not an issue.Â* Surprise!Â* It got quiet.Â* Dump the glider
(no worrying that it was my wife flying - she can do this on her own).Â*
Pick out a field and steer that way.Â* Actually I'd chosen that field
years before.Â* Look inside for what might be the problem.Â* Aha!Â* The
edge of my glove had hooked the mixture control as I came back from
adjusting the prop control (this was a Cessna Skywagon with throttle and
mixture on the left side quadrant and prop on the panel).Â* Add mixture,
recover around 100' AGL, land, and put the gloves in my pockets.Â* That
never happened again!

On 3/11/2019 5:04 PM, wrote:
I'm curious as to how many clubs or tow pilots have really trained and cut a glider loose? It takes a bit of time to react to the situation and if you've never trained or experienced it the time is even greater.
Most tow pilots have talked about it but never experienced it in the heat of the moment.
We pull an unexpected release on our glider students. When do the tug pilots get the same unexpected training?

At one of the clubs I frequent they drop the rope in the grass on landing. So at least the tug pilot is used to reaching for the release and becomes comfortable with its location.

--
Dan, 5J

OK.....I am, "sorta among the oddballs in the US.....".
While I would like to mandate low tow......(yes, flame suit on.....have a thick skin....losing conversation.....", let's do this to be sorta reasonable.

I don't know if the "country aviation group (FAA in the US)" or country "glider group" (SSA in the US) would have the numbers........ but can we look at tug crashes based on high tow vs. low tow?
If we can, is there any MEANINGFUL info to be derived from that?!?!?!?!

I do NOT want this to be a ****ing match.....what, if any, data supports one type of tow vs. another vs. tug crashes.

I have stated this before, most comments are more, "we have always done it this way!".
This turns into a ****ing match.
The goal should be......"what is safer for all involved"????

Yes, I understand a Schweitzer tow hook may be excessively loaded in a kiting incident if mounted "hook up"… I am trying to get away from, "we always do it this way, must be best" and look at numbers if they actually show a data preference.
Again, this IS formation flying, everyone MUST do their part......we are down to....training and how big a margin exists in each type of tow.

I have my preference, I teach both, I use both....I prefer low tow.....

So......is the country glider group a better info source of tug crashes based on tow type or the country aviation group better?

What are the numbers.......????

On Tuesday, March 12, 2019 at 1:17:43 PM UTC-4, Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot) wrote:
OK.....I am, "sorta among the oddballs in the US.....".
While I would like to mandate low tow......(yes, flame suit on.....have a thick skin....losing conversation.....", let's do this to be sorta reasonable.

I don't know if the "country aviation group (FAA in the US)" or country "glider group" (SSA in the US) would have the numbers........ but can we look at tug crashes based on high tow vs. low tow?
If we can, is there any MEANINGFUL info to be derived from that?!?!?!?!

I do NOT want this to be a ****ing match.....what, if any, data supports one type of tow vs. another vs. tug crashes.

I have stated this before, most comments are more, "we have always done it this way!".
This turns into a ****ing match.
The goal should be......"what is safer for all involved"????

Yes, I understand a Schweitzer tow hook may be excessively loaded in a kiting incident if mounted "hook up"… I am trying to get away from, "we always do it this way, must be best" and look at numbers if they actually show a data preference.
Again, this IS formation flying, everyone MUST do their part......we are down to....training and how big a margin exists in each type of tow.

I have my preference, I teach both, I use both....I prefer low tow.....

So......is the country glider group a better info source of tug crashes based on tow type or the country aviation group better?

What are the numbers.......????

Out of control is out of control. How on earth does tow position affect this?

T8

On Tuesday, March 12, 2019 at 1:17:43 PM UTC-4, Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot) wrote:
OK.....I am, "sorta among the oddballs in the US.....".
While I would like to mandate low tow......
First mandate that pilots pay attention. The kiting accidents and recreations indicate once kite acceleration starts the game is lost. Doesn't matter what tow position you start from. Tow position is a scapegoat for pilot inattention.