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  #21  
Old August 28th 04, 11:39 PM
Peter Stickney
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In article ,
"Kevin Brooks" writes:

"M" *@*.* wrote in message
...
Paul J. Adam
Built Up Areas, we aren't necessarily just fighting there) which means
a lot of voice communication: it's hard enough to hear shouted
commands from downstairs or around a corner as is, without ear plugs
in place. So, you risk ringing ears and partial HF deafness later on,
in order to keep control of your fireteam during the action.


Why on Earth aren't active (electronic) ear mufflers used
nowadays? Like many hunters and shooters have done for
quite some time.


Trying to wear ear muffs under a kevlar helmet would be a bit of a chore,
for one. I'd guess that some sort of hearing enhancement and noise
suppression system is included in the Army's various future soldier
equipment research efforts now underway, but the biggest stumbling block to
all of these new systems (to include personal HUD's, etc.) right now is
*power*, and your muffs just add to that--another power-demanding device.
Many Army leaders have identified the need for lightweight, long-lasting
batteries/power supplies as being the biggest single hurdle we have to get
across if we are going to see "robosoldier" type systems go beyond the R&D
effort to actual fielding; right now we are just not there yet.


The size of the muffs is a problem as well. If I'm shooting a small
rifle, like an M-16 or Mini-14, the shell of the muff is resting on
the stock, and all of the sound goes to my right ear (and jaw) by this
direct contact. No amount of noise-cancelling gizmos can fix that.

--
Pete Stickney
A strong conviction that something must be done is the parent of many
bad measures. -- Daniel Webster
  #22  
Old August 29th 04, 04:37 AM
John Keeney
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"George Ruch" wrote in message
...

If you let some outside sound through, the system would have to be

designed
to digitally filter the sounds of gun fire. It's possible - I've seen
audio noise reduction systems (dbx, IIRC) that effectively filtered only
the transient noise (clicks, pops, etc.) from vinyl recordings. The
question is would you want to do that if recognizing those sounds and

being
able to place them in your field of hearing could be the difference

between
life and death in a firefight? In that case, simple attenuation may be

the
better solution.


Yes.
You can't just arbitrarily clip the power of a wave form very much
and leave it a recognizable sound. There has to be a proportional
reduction of each part for it to remain the same sound. And if
you want to be able to judge distances by sounds you have to suppress
the not too loud sounds as well.
Simply blanking out moments of excess volume would leave the
troops walking deafly around corners in to firing muzzles.

Perhaps you could substitute a tone that changed in frequency
based on the noise level to let the user know there's loud noises about.


  #23  
Old August 30th 04, 04:21 AM
Harry Andreas
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In article , "Kevin Brooks"
wrote:

"M" *@*.* wrote in message
...
Paul J. Adam
Built Up Areas, we aren't necessarily just fighting there) which means
a lot of voice communication: it's hard enough to hear shouted
commands from downstairs or around a corner as is, without ear plugs
in place. So, you risk ringing ears and partial HF deafness later on,
in order to keep control of your fireteam during the action.


Why on Earth aren't active (electronic) ear mufflers used
nowadays? Like many hunters and shooters have done for
quite some time.


Trying to wear ear muffs under a kevlar helmet would be a bit of a chore,
for one. I'd guess that some sort of hearing enhancement and noise
suppression system is included in the Army's various future soldier
equipment research efforts now underway, but the biggest stumbling block to
all of these new systems (to include personal HUD's, etc.) right now is
*power*, and your muffs just add to that--another power-demanding device.
Many Army leaders have identified the need for lightweight, long-lasting
batteries/power supplies as being the biggest single hurdle we have to get
across if we are going to see "robosoldier" type systems go beyond the R&D
effort to actual fielding; right now we are just not there yet.


I've been using Peltor electronic ears for over a year and they work great,
but they are too big for some applications.
OTOH, I have seen the same principle in a hearing-aid sized device that
fits into the ear with custom earpieces.
These electronic ears don't seem to clip too much off the normal hearing,
just the peaks.

I did a program the year before last that needed to use LiMnO2 and
LiSO2 batteries. Found out that the US Army is the world's biggest
user of batteries.

--
Harry Andreas
Engineering raconteur
  #25  
Old August 30th 04, 04:45 AM
Kevin Brooks
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"Harry Andreas" wrote in message
...
In article , "Kevin Brooks"
wrote:

"M" *@*.* wrote in message
...
Paul J. Adam
Built Up Areas, we aren't necessarily just fighting there) which

means
a lot of voice communication: it's hard enough to hear shouted
commands from downstairs or around a corner as is, without ear plugs
in place. So, you risk ringing ears and partial HF deafness later

on,
in order to keep control of your fireteam during the action.

Why on Earth aren't active (electronic) ear mufflers used
nowadays? Like many hunters and shooters have done for
quite some time.


Trying to wear ear muffs under a kevlar helmet would be a bit of a

chore,
for one. I'd guess that some sort of hearing enhancement and noise
suppression system is included in the Army's various future soldier
equipment research efforts now underway, but the biggest stumbling block

to
all of these new systems (to include personal HUD's, etc.) right now is
*power*, and your muffs just add to that--another power-demanding

device.
Many Army leaders have identified the need for lightweight, long-lasting
batteries/power supplies as being the biggest single hurdle we have to

get
across if we are going to see "robosoldier" type systems go beyond the

R&D
effort to actual fielding; right now we are just not there yet.


I've been using Peltor electronic ears for over a year and they work

great,
but they are too big for some applications.
OTOH, I have seen the same principle in a hearing-aid sized device that
fits into the ear with custom earpieces.
These electronic ears don't seem to clip too much off the normal hearing,
just the peaks.

I did a program the year before last that needed to use LiMnO2 and
LiSO2 batteries. Found out that the US Army is the world's biggest
user of batteries.


Not a bit surprising. Every company level supply room I ever used or visited
had a full size refrigerator which was to be used for battery storage (and
of course for the supply sergeants lunch, etc...). Radios used the lithium
batteries, and you'd be surprised at the number of plain ol' D-cells a unit
required, to operate everything from the landlines (TA-312's) and
switchboard to the ubiquitous flashlights. I understand the R&D folks are
really pushing for lightweight fuel cells to take over a lot of the load in
the not-too-distant future.

Brooks


--
Harry Andreas
Engineering raconteur



  #26  
Old August 30th 04, 04:46 AM
wse
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Default



Howard Berkowitz wrote:
In article ,
(Harry Andreas) wrote:


I did a program the year before last that needed to use LiMnO2 and
LiSO2 batteries. Found out that the US Army is the world's biggest
user of batteries.




In other words, assault is impossible without battery.


"The scramble to find batteries and get them to troops fighting in
Operation Iraqi Freedom is leading to a policy review of
non-rechargeable batteries, as well as an examination of alternative
power sources, such as fuel cells and solar panels.

Inadequate inventories of military batteries almost led U.S. forces to
cease operations or alter tactics during Operation Iraqi Freedom. But
several U.S. manufacturers helped avert a potential crisis by slowly
replenishing stocks of the non-rechargeable BA 5990 battery, said a Navy
official.

Navy Capt. Clark Driscoll, the Defense Contract Management Agency
liaison to the Joint Staff, said lack of funding had left the inventory
of BA 5590s in “bad shape for a long time.”

The BA 5590 is the military’s most widely used portable power source,
operating a variety of communications devices.

“We literally [came] within days of running out of these batteries—where
major combat operations would either have ceased or changed in their
character because of the lack of battery support,” Driscoll said in
remarks to the Tri-Service Power Expo, in Norfolk, Va."

http://www.nationaldefensemagazine.o...le.cfm?id=1190

  #27  
Old August 30th 04, 04:53 AM
George Ruch
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"John Keeney" wrote:


"George Ruch" wrote in message
.. .

[...]
The question is would you want to do that if recognizing those sounds and
being able to place them in your field of hearing could be the difference
between life and death in a firefight? In that case, simple attenuation
may be the better solution.


Yes.
You can't just arbitrarily clip the power of a wave form very much
and leave it a recognizable sound. [...]
Simply blanking out moments of excess volume would leave the
troops walking deafly around corners in to firing muzzles.

Perhaps you could substitute a tone that changed in frequency
based on the noise level to let the user know there's loud noises about.


Possible, but with everything else going on (HUDs, data links, etc.) we're
quickly entering the realm of Heinlein's powered suits from _Starship
Troopers_ (the original book, not the movie). There's a description in the
book a system that would make a fighter pilot feel right at home.

I have a copy around here somewhere. I'll dig it out when I can.

| George Ruch
| "Is there life in Clovis after Clovis Man?"
  #28  
Old August 30th 04, 06:41 AM
John Keeney
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Posts: n/a
Default


"George Ruch" wrote in message
...
"John Keeney" wrote:


"George Ruch" wrote in message
.. .

[...]
The question is would you want to do that if recognizing those sounds

and
being able to place them in your field of hearing could be the

difference
between life and death in a firefight? In that case, simple

attenuation
may be the better solution.


Yes.
You can't just arbitrarily clip the power of a wave form very much
and leave it a recognizable sound. [...]
Simply blanking out moments of excess volume would leave the
troops walking deafly around corners in to firing muzzles.

Perhaps you could substitute a tone that changed in frequency
based on the noise level to let the user know there's loud noises about.


Possible, but with everything else going on (HUDs, data links, etc.) we're
quickly entering the realm of Heinlein's powered suits from _Starship
Troopers_ (the original book, not the movie). There's a description in

the
book a system that would make a fighter pilot feel right at home.


Power is one of the two or three things that are holding the military
up in adopting exoskeletons: prototypes -or perhaps proof of concept units-
have been demonstrated and they are nothing short of amazing in what
they allow the wearer to do.

I have a copy around here somewhere. I'll dig it out when I can.


I suspect most of us in RAM have a copy lurking about some where.

Directed energy weapons are dang near here and power suits might
not be that far behind.


  #29  
Old August 30th 04, 08:54 AM
George Ruch
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Posts: n/a
Default

"John Keeney" wrote:


"George Ruch" wrote in message
.. .
Possible, but with everything else going on (HUDs, data links, etc.) we're
quickly entering the realm of Heinlein's powered suits from _Starship
Troopers_ (the original book, not the movie). There's a description in
the book of a system that would make a fighter pilot feel right at home.


Power is one of the two or three things that are holding the military
up in adopting exoskeletons: prototypes -or perhaps proof of concept units-
have been demonstrated and they are nothing short of amazing in what
they allow the wearer to do.


Interesting. I'll have to look that up.

power demands, there's a discussion upthread concerning a shortage of
field battery packs. Makes me wonder if we should become even more
technology dependent.

Directed energy weapons are dang near here and power suits might
not be that far behind.


Airborne laser systems, some of the Star Wars stuff. Makes me want very
much to know there's a sane person in control of the fire button.

| George Ruch
| "Is there life in Clovis after Clovis Man?"
  #30  
Old August 30th 04, 11:02 AM
Paul J. Adam
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In message , George Ruch
writes
"John Keeney" wrote:
Perhaps you could substitute a tone that changed in frequency
based on the noise level to let the user know there's loud noises about.


Possible, but with everything else going on (HUDs, data links, etc.) we're
quickly entering the realm of Heinlein's powered suits from _Starship
Troopers_ (the original book, not the movie). There's a description in the
book a system that would make a fighter pilot feel right at home.


Heinlein understood the virtue of simplicity and transparency, when it
came to equipment.

"This leaves you with your whole mind free to handle your weapons and
notice what is going on around you... which is *supremely* important to
an infantryman who wants to die in bed. If you load a mudfoot down with
a lot of gadgets that he has to watch, someone a lot more simply
equipped - say with a stone ax - will sneak up and bash his head in
while he is trying to read a vernier."

--
He thinks too much: such men are dangerous.
Julius Caesar I:2

Paul J. Adam MainBoxatjrwlynch[dot]demon{dot}co(.)uk
 




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