FAA shares blame also

Steven P. McNicoll wrote:

"Matt Whiting" wrote in message
...

Well, they work for the folks in first ... just like SS. :-)



Social Security IS a Ponzi scheme.




Never said it wasn't. I just said that even Ponzi schemes work for
some, just not for all ... and not for long.


Matt

"Matt Barrow" wrote in newsIuke.51$Kp2.6060
@news.uswest.net:

Your 401 is HOW old?

About 5 years. The company didn't offer one until it became a tax
advantage to offer it.

--
Regards,

Stan

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." B. Franklin

"Matt Whiting" wrote in message
...

Never said it wasn't. I just said that even Ponzi schemes work for some,
just not for all ... and not for long.


So in other words, you said Ponzi schemes work just like a Ponzi scheme.

In article , Stan Gosnell
wrote:

I don't agree. I don't think it is at all possible to invest SS taxes
and come out ahead

I once did a calculation that showed I would have 4x the retirement income
from my contribution than I would receive from SS (and the amount contributed
into each plan was comparable). This was based on conservative returns
of 2-3% real returns.

--
Bob Noel
no one likes an educated mule

On Mon, 23 May 2005 23:55:17 -0400, Bob Noel
wrote:

In article , Stan Gosnell
wrote:

I don't agree. I don't think it is at all possible to invest SS taxes
and come out ahead

I once did a calculation that showed I would have 4x the retirement income
from my contribution than I would receive from SS (and the amount contributed
into each plan was comparable). This was based on conservative returns
of 2-3% real returns.

Typically you can expect real returns to average about twice that with
inflation taken into account.

Historically the market has averaged 11% per year when the crashes are
included in the average. Certainly some years it has been less, way
less, or even negative, but long term a diversified account is the
best plan you can find.

One problem with the market that used to be common with small
investors was the lemming like fleeing with any negative indicators.
I think some of those same people are not managing some large
retirement funds and making their panic self fulfilling.

Another thing to remember: You usually have a choice of short term or
long term gains. The two are *usually* mutually exclusive. IOW, you
can have one or the other. There have been exceptions but they are
long shots, sorta like winning the lottery.

Very few people make money day trading in the long run. Again there
are exceptions. With lots of study giving a through knowledge of the
market, conditions, the stocks, outside influences, and a bit of luck
some do make a lot of money, but it's about as sure a thing as the
lottery for the small investor, or those not willing to spend the time
studying and that is a lot of time.

Had I had the option of putting half my SS into stock over the years I
could have retired a multi-millionaire.

Yes, there is risk associated with investing and one of the first
steps is risk assessment and risk tolerance studies for both the
investment and investor.

Probably the most important point to make about investing: You need
to know how to save before you can invest. There are a lot of
meanings hidden in that statement. "Save now, spend later". Settle
for a bit less to begin so you have more to invest. Don't purchase
new cars regularly, they are the worst investment you can make. If
you must purchase a new car, drive it till the wheels are ready to
fall off. Don't over extend. Get rid of all but the necessary credit
card and pay it off at the end of the month, every month. If in the
hole now, make use of credit management as an aid to get out of debt.
Learn to manage your circumstances instead of letting circumstances
manage you.

Most individuals can do far better financially than they are now doing
by spending some time with a credit counselor.

There are those due to health and other circumstances who will never
be able to do much in the way of investing, but that is not true for
the vast majority who decide to do something other than grouse about
their circumstances.

Like becoming a pilot, most of us have far more capability for saving
and investing than we give ourselves credit. Like becoming a pilot
the first step is deciding that we are going to commit ourselves to
doing it. For all but a few the choice is ours.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

Steven P. McNicoll wrote:
"Matt Whiting" wrote in message
...

Never said it wasn't. I just said that even Ponzi schemes work for some,
just not for all ... and not for long.



So in other words, you said Ponzi schemes work just like a Ponzi scheme.



That is right. They work for the orginators of the scheme, but not the
suckers who come later. With SS, the baby boomers, and the post-baby
boomers likely will be the suckers. The government has deep pockets so
they can perpetuate the scheme much longer than other entities could.


Matt

Bob Noel wrote:

In article , Stan Gosnell
wrote:


I don't agree. I don't think it is at all possible to invest SS taxes
and come out ahead


I once did a calculation that showed I would have 4x the retirement income
from my contribution than I would receive from SS (and the amount contributed
into each plan was comparable). This was based on conservative returns
of 2-3% real returns.


I'd like to see that calculation. That certainly isn't what I've seen.
Then again, it all depends on what age you plan to retire and how long
you plan to live.


Matt

"Bob Noel" wrote in message
...
In article , Stan Gosnell

wrote:

I don't agree. I don't think it is at all possible to invest SS taxes
and come out ahead

I once did a calculation that showed I would have 4x the retirement income
from my contribution than I would receive from SS (and the amount
contributed
into each plan was comparable). This was based on conservative returns
of 2-3% real returns.


Consider, too, that SS funds go into consumption (it's a Ponzi scheme
afterall) rather than investment like, well...like real investments.

The basis of mercantilism was increasing consumption, not production. It's
the increases in production that generates wealth and better standards of
living.

"Matt Whiting" wrote in message
...
Steven P. McNicoll wrote:
"Matt Whiting" wrote in message
...

Never said it wasn't. I just said that even Ponzi schemes work for
some,
just not for all ... and not for long.



So in other words, you said Ponzi schemes work just like a Ponzi
scheme.



That is right. They work for the orginators of the scheme, but not the
suckers who come later. With SS, the baby boomers, and the post-baby
boomers likely will be the suckers. The government has deep pockets so
they can perpetuate the scheme much longer than other entities could.

They also have guns and badges.

"Matt Whiting" wrote in message
...
Bob Noel wrote:

In article , Stan Gosnell

wrote:


I don't agree. I don't think it is at all possible to invest SS taxes
and come out ahead


I once did a calculation that showed I would have 4x the retirement
income
from my contribution than I would receive from SS (and the amount
contributed
into each plan was comparable). This was based on conservative returns
of 2-3% real returns.


I'd like to see that calculation. That certainly isn't what I've seen.

Check www.techcentralstation.com, someone did those calucations about two
years ago.

Then again, it all depends on what age you plan to retire and how long
you plan to live.

Pardon?