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Best modern jet fighter



 
 
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  #21  
Old September 17th 04, 12:26 AM
John Mullen
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"Ragnar" wrote in message ...
"John Mullen" wrote in message
...
"Ragnar" wrote in message
...

"John Mullen" wrote in message
...
I guess you totally don't get sarcasm. Thanks for playing.


Bzzzzz! Wrong answer. Try again.

I see you have studied at the John Tarver school of Usenet skills.

Awwwwww, did his little feelings get hurt with the truth?


You mean my little feelings? LOL no. I have seen plenty worse manners than
yours before.

I merely observed that you and the much-missed JT seem to share a lot of
vocabulary in common.


Except that I'm not an answer-bot like Tarver.


Hmm. Even that 'answer-bot' sounds like one of his phrases.

I'm afraid I will still think of you as 'son-of-Tarver' until or
unless you can come up with a more adult way of dealing with people.



John
Ads
  #22  
Old September 17th 04, 02:22 AM
Nele VII
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OK, al udri argumentima, brt'e... Nemo' da nagadjas... citiraj... ako treba
ucitaj svu ovu NG s pocetka godine... ako ces linkove, poslacu ti...

Nele

NULLA ROSA SINE SPINA

Icarus wrote in message ...
Nemoj, co'ce, da se brukas...


Ma ne mogu pustit covjeka da uporno zdvaja nad time kako je F-15

najjebeniji
avion na kugli zemaljskoj...inace, vijest da je YU 29 srusila F 15 nasao

sam
na nekoj stranici, al hebi ga, ne mogu odgovarati za autenticnost-ti ces to
malo bolje znat...kod nas nisu napadali. A sto se K 36 tice znam da je

vojna
stampa uvijek tvrdila kako ne postoji bolje sjedalo, tako je barem bilo

pred
2 godine, ne mogu ni ja pratit svaku sitnicu... Pozdrav!




  #23  
Old September 17th 04, 09:44 AM
Ragnar
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"John Mullen" wrote in message
om...
"Ragnar" wrote in message

...
"John Mullen" wrote in message
...
"Ragnar" wrote in message
...

"John Mullen" wrote in message
...
I guess you totally don't get sarcasm. Thanks for playing.


Bzzzzz! Wrong answer. Try again.

I see you have studied at the John Tarver school of Usenet skills.

Awwwwww, did his little feelings get hurt with the truth?


You mean my little feelings? LOL no. I have seen plenty worse manners

than
yours before.

I merely observed that you and the much-missed JT seem to share a lot

of
vocabulary in common.


Except that I'm not an answer-bot like Tarver.


Hmm. Even that 'answer-bot' sounds like one of his phrases.

I'm afraid I will still think of you as 'son-of-Tarver' until or
unless you can come up with a more adult way of dealing with people.


Bite me.


  #24  
Old September 18th 04, 01:01 AM
John Mullen
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"Ragnar" wrote in message
...

"John Mullen" wrote in message
om...
"Ragnar" wrote in message

...
"John Mullen" wrote in message
...
"Ragnar" wrote in message
...

"John Mullen" wrote in message
...
I guess you totally don't get sarcasm. Thanks for playing.

Bzzzzz! Wrong answer. Try again.

I see you have studied at the John Tarver school of Usenet skills.

Awwwwww, did his little feelings get hurt with the truth?


You mean my little feelings? LOL no. I have seen plenty worse manners

than
yours before.

I merely observed that you and the much-missed JT seem to share a lot

of
vocabulary in common.

Except that I'm not an answer-bot like Tarver.


Hmm. Even that 'answer-bot' sounds like one of his phrases.

I'm afraid I will still think of you as 'son-of-Tarver' until or
unless you can come up with a more adult way of dealing with people.


Bite me.


LOL

John


  #25  
Old September 18th 04, 05:12 PM
Nele VII
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Ragnar wrote in message ...
SNIP E-155 TIMELINE
Equally distributed? Your own post says different. The interceptor came
first in development.


Ragnar, man... the thing is that the "principal solution"-that means:
general layout, engines etc was made in 1960, and was intended for a
fighter. BUT, on March 10, 1961 A.I. Mikoyan wrote a "Decision about
designing an airplane YE-155" in the BOTH versions. Note that in the West,
this would have meant that project has started in 1961.

This "official" decision and the fact that the recce prototype version was
built first is still causing a stirrup in many heads, since it is
paradoxical. It would had been like if in the West the "Archangel1-1"
(future A-12) was designed as a recce plane (as it was), but, for example,
YF-12 prototype has been built first (as it wasn't).

Nele

NULLA ROSA SINE SPINA



  #26  
Old September 19th 04, 11:35 AM
TJ
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"Icarus" wrote in message ...
Nemoj, co'ce, da se brukas...


Ma ne mogu pustit covjeka da uporno zdvaja nad time kako je F-15 najjebeniji
avion na kugli zemaljskoj...inace, vijest da je YU 29 srusila F 15 nasao sam
na nekoj stranici, al hebi ga, ne mogu odgovarati za autenticnost-ti ces to
malo bolje znat...kod nas nisu napadali. A sto se K 36 tice znam da je vojna
stampa uvijek tvrdila kako ne postoji bolje sjedalo, tako je barem bilo pred
2 godine, ne mogu ni ja pratit svaku sitnicu... Pozdrav!


Icarus,
No Yugoslav pilot made any claim against NATO aircraft. Would you care
to tell me the serial of this F-15 that you claim was shot down.
Please don't bring to the newsgroup the picture of the "ANNUAL INSP
C/W" - it was a combat-jettisoned F-15 fuel tank from the MiG-29/F-15C
encounter on 26 March 1999. Both MiG-29s launched no missiles and fell
with their weapons loads (R-27 & R-73) in Bosnia.

TJ
  #27  
Old September 21st 04, 03:41 PM
rottenberg
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"Nele VII" wrote in message ...
Icarus wrote in message ...
Yes, a nice air show demonstration. Whats the COMBAT record of the Su-27
again?


That was a dogfight simulation between Su 27 and F-15...if those had been
real missiles and not a simulated ones F-15 would have ended up in flames.

Yet the F-15 has a 120-0 kill record, mostly against Soviet airplanes.
Hmmmm. . . .


FYI a Yugoslavian MiG 29 shot down one F-15...so much for unchallenged
record-nothing is perfect, it all depends on pilot...In 99% of cases,

Soviet
airplanes were never flown by Soviet/Russian pilots but by pilots who often
lacked proper training...Not even the Soviet instructors could make a
difference and get through to these pilots-as you probably know, Soviets
gave their planes to every country with similar regime-that doesn't mean
they were flown by proper people (and I won't even mention how poorly those
planes were taken care of)...Different cultures give different pilots-NATO
conducted research which showed that different countries had different
accident percentages-it had a lot to do with pilot skill...Norwegian pilots
are somewhat different than the US ones, same thing is for Russian/Chinese
etc...


Ikarus, nemoj da lupas! Ja sam bio aktivan na yu.forum.aeronautics godinama,
znam ljude, pratim avijaciju i nisam nikad cuo da je Yu 29-tka oborila F-15!
Ko je, pobogu, bio pilot? Kako to da niko pametan nije objavio na YFA?

Sorry to everybody, native language "rubbing" on the Yu MiG29/F-15 stuff.

FWIW, there has been-uncorfirmed-rumour-about four Ethyopian Su-27 and four
Erithreyan MiG-29 "clash", ending in three to zip (or was it 2-0?) victory
for Su-27s. Reportedly, pilots were Russian (Su-27) and Ukrainian (MiG-29)
instructors/mecenaries. Weapons used: R-27s (all missed), R-73.


Please, detail the difference for us.



Icarus won't provide one because there isn't any and that I wrote him in
our native language.

I'm sure you know how to use google, you'll probably find some mpeg's of
Somersault and other maneuvres yourself... If not, here is a good link to
start with:
http://aeroweb.lucia.it/~agretch/RAP.html

Yes, very interesting that the Soviets designed ejection seats that way -
almost as if they assumed from the beginning that their planes would get
shot down in droves.


I guess safety and human lives mean nothing to you...


Icarus, if you want to make a point then look Google yourself and you will
find that K-36DM WAS evaluated by US and it has been found that it is
absolutely superior to ACES-II. Also, there was some speculation about
possible licence-production. True or not, -We'll see that in the series
production F-22 ;-) .


I note it wasn't an F-15.
I see the F-15s shot down 3 MiG-25s. How many F-15s did the Mig-25s

shoot
down? Oh, whats that? ZERO, you say. Hmmmm . .


FYI-MiG 25 was primarily a Soviet version of SR 71, it isn't a
fighter...there were some versions that had been used as interceptors
however it was MiG 31 that was built for that specific role, not the MiG
25... I had chosen to compare MiG 25 and F-15 (and they actually can't be
compared-recon./fighter) only to show nothing is perfect and
invunerable...you somehow missed the point...Once again, my bet is on the

Su
27 family, not the MiG's.


Icarus, there have been -rumours- about MiG-25 victory over F-15
(Syria/Israel). But your stating that MiG-25 IS NOT a fighter plane is a
pure nonsense because:

-MiG-25 is a FIGHTER but is built in a recce version as well;
-shot down an F/-18 in Sesert Storm 1 (confirmed by US sources);
-Iraqis had ACES flying MiG-25 during Iran-Iraq war-moreover, it was an
"elite" unit (accorting to Tom Cooper), shooting down everything from F-5Es
, F-4Ds to F-14As (and vice-versa, of course).

Nemoj, co'ce, da se brukas...

Nele

NULLA ROSA SINE SPINA


Can't we just agree that you can't compare different fighters based
entirely on empirical data from individual engagements? As described,
we don't know what the comparitive pilot quality was, what the rules
of engagement were, or what combat conditions were for each side. I
just finished the Cooper Iran-Iraq book, and maybe reading it over the
course of a few months I missed the part about MiG-25's being flown by
aces (though I'm sure I would have remembered even a single F-14 being
credited to one of them; also, I do remember Cooper's description of a
Foxbat being shot down by an F-5). Also, don't confuse "elite" with
pilot expertise - we're talking about an air force largely under
direct control of Saddam Hussein (Cooper raises the issue of the lack
of autonomy for fighter pilots at least in the early phases of the
war). Being "elite" could very well have a lot to do with political
connections or simple political correctness.
  #28  
Old September 21st 04, 04:34 PM
Bjørnar Bolsøy
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Any records on Nato or neutral pilots who have flown both the Eagle
and the Flanker, and their comments/views?


Regards...
  #29  
Old September 22nd 04, 02:51 PM
rottenberg
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"Bjørnar Bolsøy" wrote in message ...
Any records on Nato or neutral pilots who have flown both the Eagle
and the Flanker, and their comments/views?

Regards...


I would be surprised if they provided any comments that pointed to an
over-all superiority of one of the planes. As well know, one of a
fighter pilots most crucial skills is highlighting the advantages of
whatever plane he's flying against those of an opponent. What's not
as understood is that pilots aren't supposed to be critical of their
planes beyond the extent needed to point out their weaknesses and
learn to avoid them. In Yeager's book there's a story about fighter
pilots being invited to test fly the hot new F-100. Unsurprisingly,
these guys loved every minute of it. However, none of them paid much
attention to those areas of its flight regime that had worried Yeager
- they were only looking at what made the plane so hot.
Unfortunately, in hopes of quelling fears, NA's flight-test chief took
up one of the early Huns and flew a profile directly risking the sort
of directional instability problems Yeager warned of - only to lose
his life when the plane disintegrated.
 




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