A aviation & planes forum. AviationBanter

If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

Go Back   Home » AviationBanter forum » rec.aviation newsgroups » Military Aviation
Site Map Home Register Authors List Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Web Partners

Best modern jet fighter



 
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old September 13th 04, 01:49 PM
Icarus
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Best modern jet fighter

F-15C. Unchallenged combat record.

How much combat has the SU-27/37 seen?

Call me when they get some actual experience.


Just FYI 2 Su 27's from Lipetsk (a Russian "Top gun" school) flew to Langley
air force base where they competed against F-15's. If think it was in 1992.
but what was surprising for some was the fact that the Sukhoi proved to be
better in almost every aspect-there was only one test in which F-15 barely
managed to beat Su 27...Pilot skill??? I agree with those who say that it
plays important role, because it really does... Somehow, I doubt the
Americans would send rookies to compete against Russian pilots, those who
flew in these F-15's probably had lots of experience. I know that Sukhoi's
were operated by Lipetsk school instructors... Anyway, Americans always
relied on hi-tech electronics whereas Russians relied on
super-maneuvreability. Heck, even the Pentagon stated that the new
generation fighter should be capable of doing some of those maneuvres-in
this case Pugachev's cobra...Su 27 the rest of it's "family" except the IB
version are capable of doing it without trust vectoring (Su 37 can do even
more becuse of trust vect.)-I would bet that the F-35 won't be able to do it
even with trust vectoring. (And no, F-18 can't pull off a true Cobra)Why?
Most of Russian fighter classes since 80's are aerodynamicly stable (Ok,
some of them not on every axis)-they tend to rise by themselves where US
fighters tend to fall and need good FBW systems-F 22 would be almost
unflyable without one. When is a US fighter going to be able to do a
Somersault? Some will say those are only things for airshows but in dogfight
they could mean a difference... Not to mention the Su 27's EOS system which
enables him a stealthy detection without the use of radar...some will say
"So what, it covers only 15 km depending on the weather conditions". True,
yet you could detect F-117 with it. Let's face it, stealth may seem a good
idea but it's worth only in BVR fight, planes will always leave IR trails no
matter how invisible they are for radar, not to mention there are ground
systems which can detect stealth planes (they aren't based on doppler effect
as radars are). Besides, I reckon the R-27 and R-77 sound familiar to you,
both excellent in close and BVR fight (although I heard a rumor that one
R-77 missile missed a drone target and hit a civilian airplane, yet this one
is unconfirmed)...Super maneuvreability+R-27 (or some of it's
equivalents)+off boresight capability could pose a serious threat even if an
average pilot flew the plane...Btw...anyone remember that Le Bourget crash
showing K-36 efficiency, I doubt Martin Baker seats are as good as the
"Zvezda" (Ok, probably close, yet not as good)... All in all, I wouldn't be
surprised to see Su kick ass of any US fighter...Just one thing for the
end-the first air to air kill of the Gulf War is believed to be a US F-18
shot down by an Iraqi MiG-25 on 17 January 1991. Yeah, the Israeli F-15's
shot down 3 MiG-25's but MiG-25 was capable of doing damage and getting out
of there fast-at 2,8 Mach US fighters could just watch in the Iraqi case
(AIM 120's couldn't do the job)...What I was trying to say the whole time is
that Russian fighters (I'm talkin about Suhkoi's) may or may not be so
perfect, but you sure can't just underestimate them and start shouting US
Air force has the best planes and pilots in the whole wide world...it
hasn't-you all know how the excercise with India went on and I don't have to
explain what it means...


Ads
  #2  
Old September 13th 04, 10:17 PM
Ragnar
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Icarus" wrote in message
...
F-15C. Unchallenged combat record.

How much combat has the SU-27/37 seen?

Call me when they get some actual experience.


Just FYI 2 Su 27's from Lipetsk (a Russian "Top gun" school) flew to

Langley
air force base where they competed against F-15's. If think it was in

1992.
but what was surprising for some was the fact that the Sukhoi proved to be
better in almost every aspect-there was only one test in which F-15 barely
managed to beat Su 27...Pilot skill???


Yes, a nice air show demonstration. Whats the COMBAT record of the Su-27
again?

Anyway, Americans always
relied on hi-tech electronics whereas Russians relied on
super-maneuvreability.


Yet the F-15 has a 120-0 kill record, mostly against Soviet airplanes.
Hmmmm. . . .

When is a US fighter going to be able to do a
Somersault? Some will say those are only things for airshows but in

dogfight
they could mean a difference...


Please, detail the difference for us.

Btw...anyone remember that Le Bourget crash
showing K-36 efficiency, I doubt Martin Baker seats are as good as the
"Zvezda" (Ok, probably close, yet not as good)...


Yes, very interesting that the Soviets designed ejection seats that way -
almost as if they assumed from the beginning that their planes would get
shot down in droves.

Just one thing for the end-the first air to air kill of the Gulf War is

believed to be a US F-18 shot down by an Iraqi MiG-25 on 17 January 1991.

I note it wasn't an F-15.

Yeah, the Israeli F-15's
shot down 3 MiG-25's but MiG-25 was capable of doing damage and getting

out
of there fast-at 2,8 Mach


I see the F-15s shot down 3 MiG-25s. How many F-15s did the Mig-25s shoot
down? Oh, whats that? ZERO, you say. Hmmmm . . . . .

What I was trying to say the whole time is
that Russian fighters (I'm talkin about Suhkoi's) may or may not be so
perfect, but you sure can't just underestimate them and start shouting US
Air force has the best planes and pilots in the whole wide world


I never said that. I said the best modern fighter is the F-15, based on its
unchallenged combat record.



  #3  
Old September 14th 04, 11:01 AM
Urban Fredriksson
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

In article , Ragnar wrote:

Yes, very interesting that the Soviets designed ejection seats that way -
almost as if they assumed from the beginning that their planes would get
shot down in droves.


Is it? How do you then explain why US ejection seats have
become better while the aircraft have become better?

Also think about how well it didn't work to not give
pilots parachutes to prevent less then excellent
performance?
--
Urban Fredriksson http://www.canit.se/%7Egriffon/
There is always a yet unknown alternative.
  #4  
Old September 14th 04, 12:19 PM
Ragnar
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Urban Fredriksson" wrote in message
...
In article , Ragnar

wrote:

Yes, very interesting that the Soviets designed ejection seats that way -
almost as if they assumed from the beginning that their planes would get
shot down in droves.


Is it? How do you then explain why US ejection seats have
become better while the aircraft have become better?


Don't get sarcasm, do we?




  #5  
Old September 14th 04, 09:47 PM
Icarus
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Yes, a nice air show demonstration. Whats the COMBAT record of the Su-27
again?


That was a dogfight simulation between Su 27 and F-15...if those had been
real missiles and not a simulated ones F-15 would have ended up in flames.

Yet the F-15 has a 120-0 kill record, mostly against Soviet airplanes.
Hmmmm. . . .


FYI a Yugoslavian MiG 29 shot down one F-15...so much for unchallenged
record-nothing is perfect, it all depends on pilot...In 99% of cases, Soviet
airplanes were never flown by Soviet/Russian pilots but by pilots who often
lacked proper training...Not even the Soviet instructors could make a
difference and get through to these pilots-as you probably know, Soviets
gave their planes to every country with similar regime-that doesn't mean
they were flown by proper people (and I won't even mention how poorly those
planes were taken care of)...Different cultures give different pilots-NATO
conducted research which showed that different countries had different
accident percentages-it had a lot to do with pilot skill...Norwegian pilots
are somewhat different than the US ones, same thing is for Russian/Chinese
etc...

Please, detail the difference for us.


I'm sure you know how to use google, you'll probably find some mpeg's of
Somersault and other maneuvres yourself... If not, here is a good link to
start with:
http://aeroweb.lucia.it/~agretch/RAP.html

Yes, very interesting that the Soviets designed ejection seats that way -
almost as if they assumed from the beginning that their planes would get
shot down in droves.


I guess safety and human lives mean nothing to you...

I note it wasn't an F-15.
I see the F-15s shot down 3 MiG-25s. How many F-15s did the Mig-25s shoot
down? Oh, whats that? ZERO, you say. Hmmmm . .


FYI-MiG 25 was primarily a Soviet version of SR 71, it isn't a
fighter...there were some versions that had been used as interceptors
however it was MiG 31 that was built for that specific role, not the MiG
25... I had chosen to compare MiG 25 and F-15 (and they actually can't be
compared-recon./fighter) only to show nothing is perfect and
invunerable...you somehow missed the point...Once again, my bet is on the Su
27 family, not the MiG's.


  #6  
Old September 15th 04, 12:14 AM
Ragnar
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Icarus" wrote in message
...
Yes, a nice air show demonstration. Whats the COMBAT record of the

Su-27
again?


That was a dogfight simulation between Su 27 and F-15...if those had been
real missiles and not a simulated ones F-15 would have ended up in flames.


Supposition not based on actual facts. What is the Su-27s ACTUAL combat
record?

Yet the F-15 has a 120-0 kill record, mostly against Soviet airplanes.
Hmmmm. . . .


FYI a Yugoslavian MiG 29 shot down one F-15..


Cite?

In 99% of cases, Soviet
airplanes were never flown by Soviet/Russian pilots but by pilots who

often
lacked proper training..


Really? How did they not get proper training? They went to Soviet-designed
schools, with Soviet instructors.

Not even the Soviet instructors could make a
difference


You do know that this doesn't make your case. If the Soviet Instructors
aren't capable of training, how can they be any good?

Yes, very interesting that the Soviets designed ejection seats that

way -
almost as if they assumed from the beginning that their planes would get
shot down in droves.


I guess safety and human lives mean nothing to you...\


I guess you totally don't get sarcasm. Thanks for playing.

I note it wasn't an F-15.
I see the F-15s shot down 3 MiG-25s. How many F-15s did the Mig-25s

shoot
down? Oh, whats that? ZERO, you say. Hmmmm . .


FYI-MiG 25 was primarily a Soviet version of SR 71,


Bzzzzz! Wrong answer. Try again.

it isn't a fighter.


Its an interceptor, which is what the F-15 was also designed to be. Recce
models of the 25 came AFTER.


  #7  
Old September 15th 04, 01:48 AM
John Mullen
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

I guess you totally don't get sarcasm. Thanks for playing.

Bzzzzz! Wrong answer. Try again.


I see you have studied at the John Tarver school of Usenet skills.

John


  #8  
Old September 15th 04, 02:28 AM
WaltBJ
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

ISTR the 27 and the 29 have gone against each other several times in
the Eritrea fighting some years ago - can't remember the score. Both
types were flown by mercenary pilots so skill should be rather equal.
FWIW I rate the 'cobra' as having very little combat value - unless
one is tired of living.
Walt BJ
  #9  
Old September 15th 04, 09:38 AM
Ragnar
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"John Mullen" wrote in message
...
I guess you totally don't get sarcasm. Thanks for playing.


Bzzzzz! Wrong answer. Try again.


I see you have studied at the John Tarver school of Usenet skills.


Awwwwww, did his little feelings get hurt with the truth?



  #10  
Old September 15th 04, 06:49 PM
John Mullen
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

"Ragnar" wrote in message
...

"John Mullen" wrote in message
...
I guess you totally don't get sarcasm. Thanks for playing.


Bzzzzz! Wrong answer. Try again.


I see you have studied at the John Tarver school of Usenet skills.


Awwwwww, did his little feelings get hurt with the truth?


You mean my little feelings? LOL no. I have seen plenty worse manners than
yours before.

I merely observed that you and the much-missed JT seem to share a lot of
vocabulary in common.

John


 




Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Best modern jet fighter??? Icarus Military Aviation 19 November 28th 11 10:57 PM
Why was the Fokker D VII A Good Plane? Matthew G. Saroff Military Aviation 111 May 4th 04 05:34 PM
In-depth article on modern fighter jet engines Bjørnar Bolsøy Military Aviation 0 December 21st 03 08:17 PM
Modern day propeller fighter - hypothetical Nev Military Aviation 38 December 6th 03 05:39 AM
A-4 / A-7 Question Tank Fixer Military Aviation 135 October 25th 03 03:59 AM


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 08:45 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004-2018 AviationBanter.
The comments are property of their posters.