Glider Cross-country signoff & FARs

"Michael" wrote in message
om...
(Mark James Boyd) wrote

Clubs and XC operations make it difficult to go XC by making all sorts
of rules that sound reasonable on paper but add up to making it very
difficult or impossible to get permission. Making the XC required

C'mon Michael, the club req's were to have a bronze badge and call on a
Thursday night to reserve the ship for a day on the weekend.

The club currently has a very active bronze badge program and an XC training
and mentoring program.

Things sometimes change for the better.

At 19:30 21 January 2004, Mark James Boyd wrote:
....
If (student pilots) haven't disassembled and reassembled
a glider, that's in direct
violation of US CFR 61.87(i)(13).

No, it's not. The FAR cited requires pre-solo training
in procedures for assembly/disassembly. This can be
done by thorough ground instruction & reference to
one or more pertinent flight manuals. It's also good
practice to discuss personnel & equipment required
and remove interior panel(s) as needed to show students
the main pins, control connections and other items,
but an actual assembly or disassembly is not required.


Judy

303pilot brentUNDERSCOREsullivanATbmcDOTcom wrote:

"Michael" wrote in message
. com...
(Mark James Boyd) wrote

Clubs and XC operations make it difficult to go XC by making all sorts
of rules that sound reasonable on paper but add up to making it very
difficult or impossible to get permission. Making the XC required

C'mon Michael, the club req's were to have a bronze badge and call on a
Thursday night to reserve the ship for a day on the weekend.

Well, I still don't have a bronze badge, between a barograph that
broke after a flight and during calibration, lack of O/Os
during the end of my flights, the SSA not sending out
badge packets three months after getting a CFIG, and the shortness
of the silver badge distance flight, I have a Silver badge, but
no bronze badge (but I did take the quiz at least!).

Ask how many of your newbie pilots have flown two hours+ twice,
then how many have a bronze badge, then ask them why they don't.
Paperwork, cost/time/breakage of calibration, lack of equipment
(baro or logger) and lack of O/O's. Of course all of this is
solved by simply increasing the cost/hassle to the pilot...

In article ,
Judy Ruprecht wrote:
At 19:30 21 January 2004, Mark James Boyd wrote:
...
If (student pilots) haven't disassembled and reassembled
a glider, that's in direct
violation of US CFR 61.87(i)(13).

No, it's not. The FAR cited requires pre-solo training
in procedures for assembly/disassembly. This can be
done by thorough ground instruction & reference to
one or more pertinent flight manuals. It's also good
practice to discuss personnel & equipment required
and remove interior panel(s) as needed to show students
the main pins, control connections and other items,
but an actual assembly or disassembly is not required.


Judy

61.87(i) requires flight training for the procedure...
but who does assembly or disassembly in flight?

OK Judy, I'll bite. Is the word "procedures" what allows
someone to talk about it but not actually do it? Following
this logic, is it OK to solo someone without ever having
them actually do a "pattern entry" 61.87(i)(5), since only
"pattern entry procedures" are required? Just have them
do nothing but fly in the pattern? Or to never have them actually
fly the aerotow, ground tow, or self-launch because all one
had to teach was the "procedure" 61.87(i)(12)?

In practice and practical interpretation, you may be
absolutely correct, but this is certainly NOT a
clear interpretation of the printed wording...

Of course requiring "flight training" in disassembly procedures
seems a little strange too...since I would think flight
training would be conducted in flight :P

I don't think the price of the glider has ever been part of the calculation
for landout spots. Many landouts that damage the glider are going to damage
you.

Another point, about "you can land a 1-26 anywhere" is that since
the thing may only be $6,000, one is more able to fly over
questionable landouts. A lot of landouts seem to be
benign for the pilot, but damage the glider. If I was
looking at a $30,000 ASW-20 vs. a $15,000 PW-5, I might
accept lower performance just so I'm not "hangin' out the
$15,000." Even if I got it by buying a raffle ticket! (PEZ).

"Libelle Driver" wrote in message ...
I don't think the price of the glider has ever been part of the calculation
for landout spots. Many landouts that damage the glider are going to damage
you.

I agree; the price of the glider has nothing to do with it; that's
what insurance is for (heck, out here landing out and breaking your
glider is a time-honored method of moving up to something nicer!).
Damaging a glider in a landout is most of all a nuisance issue
(assuming no injuries, of course) because it will put the glider out
of commission until it is fixed and that is a real pain if it happens
early in the season - when landouts are common!

You can land a 1-26 almost anywhere because of the short wings, low
landing speed, and rugged construction/skid. Not so my LS6 - I can't
use roads, and have a relatively small main gear wheel with a lousy
brake, so I have to keep a reasonable landing site in range at all
times - preferably an airport or dirt strip (or nice fields). With a
little planning, and a good database of landing locations in my
computer, that is really not too hard out here in the desert. For the
past few years I have averaged 2 landouts a year, every one at an
airfield or dirt strip, no damage to the glider.

Whenever we fly we all hook up our cars, knowing that if we landout
the herd will gleefully rush home to pile in our rig and rush out to
get the poor slob who couldn't keep it up - and now has to buy them
all dinner, AFTER they drink all his beer! We occasionally aerotow
retrieve, for convenience, but it is a LOT more expensive (and usually
less fun) than a ground retrieve party.

My own record is two retrieves on one day, during a contest: Landed
out in a Grob 102 at a gliderport on the first leg due to lack of
skill, got an aerotow launch and rejoined the gaggle on the return
leg, then promptly landed out again - in a wheat field this time! -
when a stratus deck moved in and cut off all lift (13 gliders landed
out within 15 minutes of each other; only 2 made it home). That ended
up in a midnight "carry the glider out of the field" ground retrieve.
Didn't seem to bother my crew too much, she married me a few years
later, but then again I havn't landed in a wheat field since then
either...

It did, however, earn me the club's "Lead C" award for that year.

Motorgliders may be convenient, and in some places without reliable
towplanes even necessary, but it must be a bit lonelier...I LIKE all
the people and activities needed to make soaring work.

Kirk

Earlier, "Libelle Driver" wrote:

I don't think the price of the glider
has ever been part of the calculation
for landout spots. Many landouts that
damage the glider are going to damage
you.

Maybe not ever _for you_. It's sure been a factor for me on occasion.

"303pilot" brentUNDERSCOREsullivanATbmcDOTcom wrote
C'mon Michael, the club req's were to have a bronze badge and call on a
Thursday night to reserve the ship for a day on the weekend.

The club currently has a very active bronze badge program and an XC training
and mentoring program.

Things sometimes change for the better.

How many non-owner pilots are now flying XC?

How many have flown their Silver distance (with or without
documentation) without buying a ship?

If you're going to claim change, show me results.

Michael

My point is I don't think it's the club that's standing in the way of people
getting started going XC.
With the Bronzes earned last season and the winter XC training going on,
this coming season will tell the tale. I think the one other thing a club
would need to do to really encourage XC in club ships would be to have a
solid single seater fleet. The club recently placed an order for another
2-place. I think buying 2 good Libelles or 3 1-34's with the same amount of
$$ would have gone a long way towards really encouraging XC.

The problem with XC flying is that it gets in your blood. If you get the
bug, and then find that the club doesn't have a ship available when you want
to go, you end up being highly motivated to find a way to buy a ship.

Brent

"Michael" wrote in message
om...
"303pilot" brentUNDERSCOREsullivanATbmcDOTcom wrote
C'mon Michael, the club req's were to have a bronze badge and call on a
Thursday night to reserve the ship for a day on the weekend.

The club currently has a very active bronze badge program and an XC
training
and mentoring program.

Things sometimes change for the better.

How many non-owner pilots are now flying XC?

How many have flown their Silver distance (with or without
documentation) without buying a ship?

If you're going to claim change, show me results.

Michael

"303pilot" brentUNDERSCOREsullivanATbmcDOTcom wrote
My point is I don't think it's the club that's standing in the way of people
getting started going XC.
With the Bronzes earned last season and the winter XC training going on,
this coming season will tell the tale.

I seem to recall that I heard the same thing a year ago. Or was it two? Or three?

Michael