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2019 SSA Contest Rules Pilot Opinion Poll Now Open



 
 
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  #1  
Old October 3rd 19, 12:40 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Andy Blackburn[_3_]
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Default 2019 SSA Contest Rules Pilot Opinion Poll Now Open

US contest pilots.

The 2019 SSA Contest Rules Pilot Opinion Poll is now open and will remain open through October 20, 2019. You must be on the SSA Pilot Ranking List to participate. We look forward to your input.

You can access the poll online at: http://www.adamsfive.com/a5soaring/survey/surveys.php

Rich Owen is running unopposed for re-election to the Rules Committee. Consequently, Rich will return to his RC seat for a four-year term. Congratulations Rich!

For the SSA Contest Rules Committee
Andy Blackburn, Chair
9B
Ads
  #2  
Old October 3rd 19, 01:26 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Tony[_5_]
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Default 2019 SSA Contest Rules Pilot Opinion Poll Now Open

what if a respondent only flew a nationals but no regionals in 2019? lowest option for # of regionals flown is 1
  #3  
Old October 3rd 19, 04:20 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Andy Blackburn[_3_]
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Default 2019 SSA Contest Rules Pilot Opinion Poll Now Open

On Wednesday, October 2, 2019 at 5:26:06 PM UTC-7, Tony wrote:
what if a respondent only flew a nationals but no regionals in 2019? lowest option for # of regionals flown is 1


Don't check anything on that question. We'll figure it out.

Andy
  #4  
Old October 3rd 19, 10:58 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
[email protected]
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Default 2019 SSA Contest Rules Pilot Opinion Poll Now Open

On Wednesday, October 2, 2019 at 7:40:59 PM UTC-4, Andy Blackburn wrote:
US contest pilots.

The 2019 SSA Contest Rules Pilot Opinion Poll is now open and will remain open through October 20, 2019. You must be on the SSA Pilot Ranking List to participate. We look forward to your input.

You can access the poll online at: http://www.adamsfive.com/a5soaring/survey/surveys.php

Rich Owen is running unopposed for re-election to the Rules Committee. Consequently, Rich will return to his RC seat for a four-year term. Congratulations Rich!

For the SSA Contest Rules Committee
Andy Blackburn, Chair
9B


The topic of US Rules vs FAI/IGC Rules is an ongoing subject. In order to help folks understand more on this topic John Good and I have authored 2 papers discussing the topic.
This is melded into one presentation that is on the SSA web site in the area of Contest rules and process- Important reading.
There is a lot to read and digest.
We hope it will be useful and informative.
UH and X
  #5  
Old October 4th 19, 03:34 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Nick Kennedy[_3_]
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Default 2019 SSA Contest Rules Pilot Opinion Poll Now Open

Those summary papers X and UH wrote are well worth reading for anyone concerned about the potential changes from going from US Comp Rules and moving to FAI Comp rules.
Read and educate yourself, there are some potential substantial safety changes in the wind.
Thanks for writing those up boys and working on the competition rules!
Thank You
T
  #6  
Old October 4th 19, 06:39 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Tim Taylor
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Default 2019 SSA Contest Rules Pilot Opinion Poll Now Open

While John and Hank have written an interesting white paper, it appears to have some significant misunderstanding of how the differences in the rules actually work. The FAI scoring does not compress the scores, it spreads it out by a factor other 2x for speed. It actually rewards flying faster most of the time. While there is much comments made about how pilots could could impact the overall daily scores by flying slower or not finishing; in reality this is only possible to know after the fact. In the real world if racing you must fly as fast as you can and try to finish every day.

From a pilot who has actually flown under FAI rules for the last two years the white paper appears very biased and contains a great deal of conjecture and inaccurate information. At the Pan American contest this year we saw significant changes in scores due to pilots ability to fly fast than the gaggle. I encourage you to review the daily scores in the 15m/std class on soaring spot.

The FAI rules are not perfect, but it is better for the USA to fly with the same rules as the rest of the world. We ae hurting our competitiveness on the international level and lowering the quality of racing in the US overall. If we don't like something in the FAI rules we are better off by using them and working from the inside to change them. The FAI is open to working to improve racing and safety. They have worked with start height limits and PEV markers this last year. If you have questions, I encourage you to speak to those of us that have actually flown with the FAI rules.


Tim (TT)
  #7  
Old October 4th 19, 02:48 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
John Godfrey (QT)[_2_]
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Default 2019 SSA Contest Rules Pilot Opinion Poll Now Open

On Friday, October 4, 2019 at 1:39:16 AM UTC-4, Tim Taylor wrote:
While John and Hank have written an interesting white paper, it appears to have some significant misunderstanding of how the differences in the rules actually work. The FAI scoring does not compress the scores, it spreads it out by a factor other 2x for speed. It actually rewards flying faster most of the time. While there is much comments made about how pilots could could impact the overall daily scores by flying slower or not finishing; in reality this is only possible to know after the fact. In the real world if racing you must fly as fast as you can and try to finish every day.

From a pilot who has actually flown under FAI rules for the last two years the white paper appears very biased and contains a great deal of conjecture and inaccurate information. At the Pan American contest this year we saw significant changes in scores due to pilots ability to fly fast than the gaggle. I encourage you to review the daily scores in the 15m/std class on soaring spot.

The FAI rules are not perfect, but it is better for the USA to fly with the same rules as the rest of the world. We ae hurting our competitiveness on the international level and lowering the quality of racing in the US overall. If we don't like something in the FAI rules we are better off by using them and working from the inside to change them. The FAI is open to working to improve racing and safety. They have worked with start height limits and PEV markers this last year. If you have questions, I encourage you to speak to those of us that have actually flown with the FAI rules.


Tim (TT)


The bias that Tim notes is understandable, given that John Good and Hank are arguably the two most invested (from an authorship and history point of view) in the current US Rules.

It is worth keeping in mind that the KEY QUESTION on the survey is whether we should TRY FAI tasking definitions and scoring for ONE YEAR at the NATIONAL level, then evaluate the results.

Winscore has already been modified and tested for this, so the impact on other aspects of our contest infrastructure is minimal.


My own opinion is that doing the experiment will take a lot of the noted bias and theroetical opinions out of the equation.

For US Team aspirants: "You play the way you practice" - Pop Warner
  #8  
Old October 4th 19, 07:33 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Tom Kelley #711
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Posts: 299
Default 2019 SSA Contest Rules Pilot Opinion Poll Now Open

On Friday, October 4, 2019 at 7:48:40 AM UTC-6, John Godfrey (QT) wrote:
On Friday, October 4, 2019 at 1:39:16 AM UTC-4, Tim Taylor wrote:
While John and Hank have written an interesting white paper, it appears to have some significant misunderstanding of how the differences in the rules actually work. The FAI scoring does not compress the scores, it spreads it out by a factor other 2x for speed. It actually rewards flying faster most of the time. While there is much comments made about how pilots could could impact the overall daily scores by flying slower or not finishing; in reality this is only possible to know after the fact. In the real world if racing you must fly as fast as you can and try to finish every day.

From a pilot who has actually flown under FAI rules for the last two years the white paper appears very biased and contains a great deal of conjecture and inaccurate information. At the Pan American contest this year we saw significant changes in scores due to pilots ability to fly fast than the gaggle. I encourage you to review the daily scores in the 15m/std class on soaring spot.

The FAI rules are not perfect, but it is better for the USA to fly with the same rules as the rest of the world. We ae hurting our competitiveness on the international level and lowering the quality of racing in the US overall. If we don't like something in the FAI rules we are better off by using them and working from the inside to change them. The FAI is open to working to improve racing and safety. They have worked with start height limits and PEV markers this last year. If you have questions, I encourage you to speak to those of us that have actually flown with the FAI rules.


Tim (TT)


The bias that Tim notes is understandable, given that John Good and Hank are arguably the two most invested (from an authorship and history point of view) in the current US Rules.

It is worth keeping in mind that the KEY QUESTION on the survey is whether we should TRY FAI tasking definitions and scoring for ONE YEAR at the NATIONAL level, then evaluate the results.

Winscore has already been modified and tested for this, so the impact on other aspects of our contest infrastructure is minimal.


My own opinion is that doing the experiment will take a lot of the noted bias and theroetical opinions out of the equation.

For US Team aspirants: "You play the way you practice" - Pop Warner


Yes, Tim and John, Pop was right. I would like to add to his thought as to ask anyone, yes, anyone to go in front of the USA Olympic Committee and demand that the USA athletes train and qualify under one set of US rules then go compete(and on short notice) under another set of World Olympic rules. Please videotape with sound, as it might be entertaining to watch and hear!

With zero notice of this new "white paper" being written and then published on the SSA site with absolutely no chance for any opposing views it might be taken as "wrongly' by some in the US racing community as this was voted on last year and has come up at many contest sites with many-seeded pilots voicing their thoughts.

Was this paper written to foster and support our sport or written as to conquer and control by a few who wish not to recognize that this has already has been decided? Will it be taken as "Snowflakes publish fake news" by some unnamed individuals?..just saying.....

Should this "white paper" be removed by the SSA leadership from the website since this topic has already been decided? Also, it could/can have been easily emailed to those on the US ranking list by the publisher or are the writer's wishing to give a false impression as the "SSA" is sponsoring this? Just asking.....but will close with the paper does cover "not all" but some "good" (cough) thoughts...

Best. Tom #711.




  #9  
Old October 4th 19, 08:19 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Tango Eight
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Default 2019 SSA Contest Rules Pilot Opinion Poll Now Open

On Friday, October 4, 2019 at 2:33:52 PM UTC-4, Tom Kelley #711 wrote:
On Friday, October 4, 2019 at 7:48:40 AM UTC-6, John Godfrey (QT) wrote:
On Friday, October 4, 2019 at 1:39:16 AM UTC-4, Tim Taylor wrote:
While John and Hank have written an interesting white paper, it appears to have some significant misunderstanding of how the differences in the rules actually work. The FAI scoring does not compress the scores, it spreads it out by a factor other 2x for speed. It actually rewards flying faster most of the time. While there is much comments made about how pilots could could impact the overall daily scores by flying slower or not finishing; in reality this is only possible to know after the fact. In the real world if racing you must fly as fast as you can and try to finish every day.

From a pilot who has actually flown under FAI rules for the last two years the white paper appears very biased and contains a great deal of conjecture and inaccurate information. At the Pan American contest this year we saw significant changes in scores due to pilots ability to fly fast than the gaggle. I encourage you to review the daily scores in the 15m/std class on soaring spot.

The FAI rules are not perfect, but it is better for the USA to fly with the same rules as the rest of the world. We ae hurting our competitiveness on the international level and lowering the quality of racing in the US overall. If we don't like something in the FAI rules we are better off by using them and working from the inside to change them. The FAI is open to working to improve racing and safety. They have worked with start height limits and PEV markers this last year. If you have questions, I encourage you to speak to those of us that have actually flown with the FAI rules.


Tim (TT)


The bias that Tim notes is understandable, given that John Good and Hank are arguably the two most invested (from an authorship and history point of view) in the current US Rules.

It is worth keeping in mind that the KEY QUESTION on the survey is whether we should TRY FAI tasking definitions and scoring for ONE YEAR at the NATIONAL level, then evaluate the results.

Winscore has already been modified and tested for this, so the impact on other aspects of our contest infrastructure is minimal.


My own opinion is that doing the experiment will take a lot of the noted bias and theroetical opinions out of the equation.

For US Team aspirants: "You play the way you practice" - Pop Warner


Yes, Tim and John, Pop was right. I would like to add to his thought as to ask anyone, yes, anyone to go in front of the USA Olympic Committee and demand that the USA athletes train and qualify under one set of US rules then go compete(and on short notice) under another set of World Olympic rules.. Please videotape with sound, as it might be entertaining to watch and hear!

With zero notice of this new "white paper" being written and then published on the SSA site with absolutely no chance for any opposing views it might be taken as "wrongly' by some in the US racing community as this was voted on last year and has come up at many contest sites with many-seeded pilots voicing their thoughts.

Was this paper written to foster and support our sport or written as to conquer and control by a few who wish not to recognize that this has already has been decided? Will it be taken as "Snowflakes publish fake news" by some unnamed individuals?..just saying.....

Should this "white paper" be removed by the SSA leadership from the website since this topic has already been decided? Also, it could/can have been easily emailed to those on the US ranking list by the publisher or are the writer's wishing to give a false impression as the "SSA" is sponsoring this? Just asking.....but will close with the paper does cover "not all" but some "good" (cough) thoughts...

Best. Tom #711.


Write the rebuttal then. I'll read it. Personally, I think the rules are secondary. I think the Polish team could come here, fly under our rules, kick us twice around the block. Sebastian would probably complain that the tasking was too short for a meaningful test of prowess.


best,
Evan / T8
  #10  
Old October 4th 19, 09:04 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
[email protected]
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Default 2019 SSA Contest Rules Pilot Opinion Poll Now Open

I’ll throw in my two cents having flown three SSA contests and three FAI contests in the last four years.

The difference between racing strategy on course is small. The fastest pilot should win in either case. Evan is correct on this fact as we have seen foreign pilots come kick our butts in the past flying under our rules.

As Tim pointed out, a lot of the issues that have been brought up in the white paper as to why we may not want the rules don’t apply or pilots wouldn’t know about it until after the fact when scored if the scores shift one way or the other as a result of distance done or number of finishers.

To me the largest change when actually flying is the start line which is normally used in FAI competitions. The white paper however states that it is the only option. A ring is available but is not commonly utilized under FAI.. It also resembles old SSA rings where you start out the side but the task distance does not change. I’ve been somewhat frustrated now with our ever evolving start cylinder where you can start out the side, top and now even back of a cylinder. This played a roll in a recent nationals that was undercalled for the task and some contestants were provided a significant advantage by starting out the back and gaining up to ten miles in distance. I think the start line is simple and easy to understand for all competitors. A max start altitude and speed can be added to control it as many countries do.

The turnpoint area in a racing task in my opinion is small but noticeable. I don’t see it changing results or safety significantly.

The finish can be set up the same with a cylinder and minimum finish altitude that can change based on airfield requirements.

The biggest difference however is the scoring formula. Again the fastest pilot will win the race and get 1,000 pts on a normal day. The factor that changes is how slower pilots receive points. Under SSA rules we see scores much closer together and everyone feels better because you feel you have a shot. Under FAI the gap spreads out a lot faster to the point where very slow finishers are scored like a landout.

At the last WGC in Standard Class there was a 1,000 pt day where the winner flew 60.8 mph. The slowest finisher went 46.4 mph, 14.4 mph slower. That finisher only got 566 pts.

In comparison last summer at US Standard Class Day 2 the winner flew 60.3 mph handicap and another finisher flew 46.3 handicap similar to the example above. The winner got 1,000 pts and the slower finisher received 768 pts, 200 pts more than he would under FAI.

So if you can beat the socks off of everyone else under FAI you’re going to start gaining points quicker but it also is easy to start losing points as well. I believe that we should move to FAI due to many of the reasons stated by others. It will allow us to practice and fly under the same rules as the rest of the world and will make use respect the points in the same way. I hope we don’t hop around multiple times and have to learn three different sets of rules. We should aim for a clean move to FAI, SeeYou Scoring and SoaringSpot utilization. Any changes required due to SSA, US airspace, handicaps and FAR type consideration can be solved with local procedures similar to many other countries.

Mike Westbrook



 




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