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2019 SSA Contest Rules Pilot Opinion Poll Now Open



 
 
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  #11  
Old October 4th 19, 09:18 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Craig Funston[_3_]
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Default 2019 SSA Contest Rules Pilot Opinion Poll Now Open

On Friday, October 4, 2019 at 1:04:10 PM UTC-7, wrote:
I’ll throw in my two cents having flown three SSA contests and three FAI contests in the last four years.

The difference between racing strategy on course is small. The fastest pilot should win in either case. Evan is correct on this fact as we have seen foreign pilots come kick our butts in the past flying under our rules.

As Tim pointed out, a lot of the issues that have been brought up in the white paper as to why we may not want the rules don’t apply or pilots wouldn’t know about it until after the fact when scored if the scores shift one way or the other as a result of distance done or number of finishers.

To me the largest change when actually flying is the start line which is normally used in FAI competitions. The white paper however states that it is the only option. A ring is available but is not commonly utilized under FAI. It also resembles old SSA rings where you start out the side but the task distance does not change. I’ve been somewhat frustrated now with our ever evolving start cylinder where you can start out the side, top and now even back of a cylinder. This played a roll in a recent nationals that was undercalled for the task and some contestants were provided a significant advantage by starting out the back and gaining up to ten miles in distance. I think the start line is simple and easy to understand for all competitors. A max start altitude and speed can be added to control it as many countries do.

The turnpoint area in a racing task in my opinion is small but noticeable.. I don’t see it changing results or safety significantly.

The finish can be set up the same with a cylinder and minimum finish altitude that can change based on airfield requirements.

The biggest difference however is the scoring formula. Again the fastest pilot will win the race and get 1,000 pts on a normal day. The factor that changes is how slower pilots receive points. Under SSA rules we see scores much closer together and everyone feels better because you feel you have a shot. Under FAI the gap spreads out a lot faster to the point where very slow finishers are scored like a landout.

At the last WGC in Standard Class there was a 1,000 pt day where the winner flew 60.8 mph. The slowest finisher went 46.4 mph, 14.4 mph slower. That finisher only got 566 pts.

In comparison last summer at US Standard Class Day 2 the winner flew 60.3 mph handicap and another finisher flew 46.3 handicap similar to the example above. The winner got 1,000 pts and the slower finisher received 768 pts, 200 pts more than he would under FAI.

So if you can beat the socks off of everyone else under FAI you’re going to start gaining points quicker but it also is easy to start losing points as well. I believe that we should move to FAI due to many of the reasons stated by others. It will allow us to practice and fly under the same rules as the rest of the world and will make use respect the points in the same way. I hope we don’t hop around multiple times and have to learn three different sets of rules. We should aim for a clean move to FAI, SeeYou Scoring and SoaringSpot utilization. Any changes required due to SSA, US airspace, handicaps and FAR type consideration can be solved with local procedures similar to many other countries.

Mike Westbrook


Mike,thanks for posting your views from the perspective of someone who's been there. I've only flown one FAI contest, but I'm in full agreement that the start line is a better solution than the US cylinder. The points will still sort out the stronger and weaker pilots. I'm for moving to FAI rules.

Craig Funston
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  #12  
Old October 4th 19, 09:21 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
John Good
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Default 2019 SSA Contest Rules Pilot Opinion Poll Now Open

Tim Taylor wrote:
The FAI scoring does not compress the scores, it spreads it out by a factor
other 2x for speed. It actually rewards flying faster most of the time.


Tim: I think this is a very basic misunderstanding. IGC scoring definitely does spread out the scores by a factor of 2x (so a pilot with 90% of the winner's speed gets 900 points under US rules and 800 under IGC rules). But the reward for flying faster doesn't change.

This is because under both systems finishers' scores are linear with speed - the speed difference you need to catch the pilots ahead of you on the scoresheet is identical. In a contest with a high percentage of completions, the final positions will be exactly the same under the two systems.

The actual effect of the "2x factor" is to make outlandings (especially short ones) less harmful - in effect, only 500 points are "up for grabs" each day (as compared to 1000 under US rules).



While there is much comments made about how pilots could could impact the
overall daily scores by flying slower or not finishing; in reality this is
only possible to know after the fact.


Not true for a pilot who is slow enough that he will finish close to two-thirds of the winner's speed. His team will have informed him of what that speed is.



... the white paper appears very biased and contains a great deal of
conjecture and inaccurate information.


Hopefully this means you will soon be providing the accurate story.



At the Pan American contest this year we saw significant changes in scores
due to pilots ability to fly fast than the gaggle.


I don't think there's any dispute that flying faster typically yields better scores.
  #13  
Old October 4th 19, 10:13 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
[email protected]
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Default 2019 SSA Contest Rules Pilot Opinion Poll Now Open

On Friday, October 4, 2019 at 2:33:52 PM UTC-4, Tom Kelley #711 wrote:
On Friday, October 4, 2019 at 7:48:40 AM UTC-6, John Godfrey (QT) wrote:
On Friday, October 4, 2019 at 1:39:16 AM UTC-4, Tim Taylor wrote:
While John and Hank have written an interesting white paper, it appears to have some significant misunderstanding of how the differences in the rules actually work. The FAI scoring does not compress the scores, it spreads it out by a factor other 2x for speed. It actually rewards flying faster most of the time. While there is much comments made about how pilots could could impact the overall daily scores by flying slower or not finishing; in reality this is only possible to know after the fact. In the real world if racing you must fly as fast as you can and try to finish every day.

From a pilot who has actually flown under FAI rules for the last two years the white paper appears very biased and contains a great deal of conjecture and inaccurate information. At the Pan American contest this year we saw significant changes in scores due to pilots ability to fly fast than the gaggle. I encourage you to review the daily scores in the 15m/std class on soaring spot.

The FAI rules are not perfect, but it is better for the USA to fly with the same rules as the rest of the world. We ae hurting our competitiveness on the international level and lowering the quality of racing in the US overall. If we don't like something in the FAI rules we are better off by using them and working from the inside to change them. The FAI is open to working to improve racing and safety. They have worked with start height limits and PEV markers this last year. If you have questions, I encourage you to speak to those of us that have actually flown with the FAI rules.


Tim (TT)


The bias that Tim notes is understandable, given that John Good and Hank are arguably the two most invested (from an authorship and history point of view) in the current US Rules.

It is worth keeping in mind that the KEY QUESTION on the survey is whether we should TRY FAI tasking definitions and scoring for ONE YEAR at the NATIONAL level, then evaluate the results.

Winscore has already been modified and tested for this, so the impact on other aspects of our contest infrastructure is minimal.


My own opinion is that doing the experiment will take a lot of the noted bias and theroetical opinions out of the equation.

For US Team aspirants: "You play the way you practice" - Pop Warner


Yes, Tim and John, Pop was right. I would like to add to his thought as to ask anyone, yes, anyone to go in front of the USA Olympic Committee and demand that the USA athletes train and qualify under one set of US rules then go compete(and on short notice) under another set of World Olympic rules.. Please videotape with sound, as it might be entertaining to watch and hear!

With zero notice of this new "white paper" being written and then published on the SSA site with absolutely no chance for any opposing views it might be taken as "wrongly' by some in the US racing community as this was voted on last year and has come up at many contest sites with many-seeded pilots voicing their thoughts.

Was this paper written to foster and support our sport or written as to conquer and control by a few who wish not to recognize that this has already has been decided? Will it be taken as "Snowflakes publish fake news" by some unnamed individuals?..just saying.....

Should this "white paper" be removed by the SSA leadership from the website since this topic has already been decided? Also, it could/can have been easily emailed to those on the US ranking list by the publisher or are the writer's wishing to give a false impression as the "SSA" is sponsoring this? Just asking.....but will close with the paper does cover "not all" but some "good" (cough) thoughts...

Best. Tom #711.


Hi Buddy.
The paper was written with input from others(including a 2 time IGC contest CD).
The intent was, and is, to help pilots become better informed on the topic. While some opinion is expressed, it was hoped that these would be clear as being opinion.
We used our names for full attribution.
As to the idea that if we just start flying to IGC/FAI rules, we will start winning. Nothing is further from the truth. There are a number of factors that are much more important when flying at the WGC.
Personally, and this no doubt shows in my writing, participation in US contests, regionals and nationals is my highest priority, after safety.
Shields on
UH
  #14  
Old October 5th 19, 12:13 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
[email protected]
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Default 2019 SSA Contest Rules Pilot Opinion Poll Now Open

The differences in scoring equations are interesting.

Perhaps the scoring program could score next year's contests both ways so the contestants could see how things work in the other system?
  #15  
Old October 5th 19, 11:22 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Andy Blackburn[_3_]
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Default 2019 SSA Contest Rules Pilot Opinion Poll Now Open

Good comments.

I'll add a few points of context. One reason why we implemented FAI Rules under WinScore is that we wanted to make sure we didn't break anything that is peripheral the the actual contest flying under this new rules regime. WinScore is tightly integrated into contest administration in the US and far more US Scorers are familiar with scoring under WinScore than SeeYou. Having the contest experience soured by peripheral administrative issues could easily bias any pilot feedback we get is something we are aiming to minimize as we want feedback to focus on the heart of the matter - the rules, principally task configuration and scoring.

People disagree about the impact of some of the finer points here and it's a healthy thing to have a debate so that there is awareness of what's potentially at stake. Having made a commitment to move forward we are now focused on what sorts of local procedures might be beneficial, both for 2020 and potentially long-term.

Please let us know what you think - here and in the poll. This is a journey that we don't want to mess up in the planning or in the execution so please point out topics you'd like to see addressed!

Best regards,

Andy Blackburn
Chair, Contest Rules Committee
(Some opinions expressed here are my personal views)


On Friday, October 4, 2019 at 1:04:10 PM UTC-7, wrote:
I’ll throw in my two cents having flown three SSA contests and three FAI contests in the last four years.

The difference between racing strategy on course is small. The fastest pilot should win in either case. Evan is correct on this fact as we have seen foreign pilots come kick our butts in the past flying under our rules.

As Tim pointed out, a lot of the issues that have been brought up in the white paper as to why we may not want the rules don’t apply or pilots wouldn’t know about it until after the fact when scored if the scores shift one way or the other as a result of distance done or number of finishers.

To me the largest change when actually flying is the start line which is normally used in FAI competitions. The white paper however states that it is the only option. A ring is available but is not commonly utilized under FAI. It also resembles old SSA rings where you start out the side but the task distance does not change. I’ve been somewhat frustrated now with our ever evolving start cylinder where you can start out the side, top and now even back of a cylinder. This played a roll in a recent nationals that was undercalled for the task and some contestants were provided a significant advantage by starting out the back and gaining up to ten miles in distance. I think the start line is simple and easy to understand for all competitors. A max start altitude and speed can be added to control it as many countries do.

The turnpoint area in a racing task in my opinion is small but noticeable.. I don’t see it changing results or safety significantly.

The finish can be set up the same with a cylinder and minimum finish altitude that can change based on airfield requirements.

The biggest difference however is the scoring formula. Again the fastest pilot will win the race and get 1,000 pts on a normal day. The factor that changes is how slower pilots receive points. Under SSA rules we see scores much closer together and everyone feels better because you feel you have a shot. Under FAI the gap spreads out a lot faster to the point where very slow finishers are scored like a landout.

At the last WGC in Standard Class there was a 1,000 pt day where the winner flew 60.8 mph. The slowest finisher went 46.4 mph, 14.4 mph slower. That finisher only got 566 pts.

In comparison last summer at US Standard Class Day 2 the winner flew 60.3 mph handicap and another finisher flew 46.3 handicap similar to the example above. The winner got 1,000 pts and the slower finisher received 768 pts, 200 pts more than he would under FAI.

So if you can beat the socks off of everyone else under FAI you’re going to start gaining points quicker but it also is easy to start losing points as well. I believe that we should move to FAI due to many of the reasons stated by others. It will allow us to practice and fly under the same rules as the rest of the world and will make use respect the points in the same way. I hope we don’t hop around multiple times and have to learn three different sets of rules. We should aim for a clean move to FAI, SeeYou Scoring and SoaringSpot utilization. Any changes required due to SSA, US airspace, handicaps and FAR type consideration can be solved with local procedures similar to many other countries.

Mike Westbrook

  #16  
Old October 8th 19, 11:14 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
John Cochrane[_3_]
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Default 2019 SSA Contest Rules Pilot Opinion Poll Now Open

An important note: thanks to dogged work by our IGC delegate Rick Sheppe, the IGC rules are going to change to a much more sane scoring system, which is much like the existing US scoring system.

John Cochrane BB

  #17  
Old October 9th 19, 12:39 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Ron Gleason
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Posts: 446
Default 2019 SSA Contest Rules Pilot Opinion Poll Now Open

On Tuesday, 8 October 2019 16:14:52 UTC-6, John Cochrane wrote:
An important note: thanks to dogged work by our IGC delegate Rick Sheppe, the IGC rules are going to change to a much more sane scoring system, which is much like the existing US scoring system.

John Cochrane BB


The FAI documents that I can are here

US proposal - https://www.fai.org/sites/default/fi...e_pointsv2.pdf

Fro the minutes of the 2019 Plenary

8.1.1 Year-2 Proposal
(USA)
Y2 SC3A 8.2 8.3 8.4 USA 2019
Calculation of Speed and Distance
Points
Text of the proposal (including Annex):
https://www.fai.org/sites/default/fi...2_sc3a_8.2_8.3
_8.4_usa_2019_calculation_of_speed_and_distance_po intsv2.pdf
Note: This proposal introduces a new additional scoring system in
Annex A that could be used by IGC competition organizers. The IGC
Plenary will reevaluate this new system in 2022 and will decide if the
current system could be removed from Annex A.
Adopted

John, do you know how the process within the FAI works? Will the new formula be used in the 2020 FAI Cat 1 and 2 events?

Thanks in advance
  #18  
Old October 9th 19, 02:10 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Tango Eight
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Default 2019 SSA Contest Rules Pilot Opinion Poll Now Open

On Tuesday, October 8, 2019 at 7:39:48 PM UTC-4, Ron Gleason wrote:
On Tuesday, 8 October 2019 16:14:52 UTC-6, John Cochrane wrote:
An important note: thanks to dogged work by our IGC delegate Rick Sheppe, the IGC rules are going to change to a much more sane scoring system, which is much like the existing US scoring system.

John Cochrane BB


The FAI documents that I can are here

US proposal - https://www.fai.org/sites/default/fi...e_pointsv2.pdf

Fro the minutes of the 2019 Plenary

8.1.1 Year-2 Proposal
(USA)
Y2 SC3A 8.2 8.3 8.4 USA 2019
Calculation of Speed and Distance
Points
Text of the proposal (including Annex):
https://www.fai.org/sites/default/fi...2_sc3a_8.2_8.3
_8.4_usa_2019_calculation_of_speed_and_distance_po intsv2.pdf
Note: This proposal introduces a new additional scoring system in
Annex A that could be used by IGC competition organizers. The IGC
Plenary will reevaluate this new system in 2022 and will decide if the
current system could be removed from Annex A.
Adopted

John, do you know how the process within the FAI works? Will the new formula be used in the 2020 FAI Cat 1 and 2 events?

Thanks in advance


See also: https://www.fai.org/igc-documents "alternative scoring system". Looks like this is already available at organizers' option.

Rick is the guy...

best,
Evan
  #19  
Old October 9th 19, 07:08 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
John Cochrane[_3_]
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Default 2019 SSA Contest Rules Pilot Opinion Poll Now Open

Since this is the US proposal, and since it takes the IGC scoring formula basically to a slightly improved version of the US scoring formula, I would hope the US takes the IGCs invitation to use the new formula in nationals contests. Naturally I've told members of the RC this opinion, enhanced by bribes in the form of beer. If you agree, let them know as well.

John Cochrane BB
  #20  
Old October 10th 19, 03:13 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
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Default 2019 SSA Contest Rules Pilot Opinion Poll Now Open

On Wednesday, October 2, 2019 at 7:40:59 PM UTC-4, Andy Blackburn wrote:
US contest pilots.

The 2019 SSA Contest Rules Pilot Opinion Poll is now open and will remain open through October 20, 2019. You must be on the SSA Pilot Ranking List to participate. We look forward to your input.

You can access the poll online at: http://www.adamsfive.com/a5soaring/survey/surveys.php

Rich Owen is running unopposed for re-election to the Rules Committee. Consequently, Rich will return to his RC seat for a four-year term. Congratulations Rich!

For the SSA Contest Rules Committee
Andy Blackburn, Chair
9B


As of 10/10 AM, half way through the polling period, we have 111 replies. That is well below the 180 or so we had last year.
The tools we are using, SSA contest pilots list service, SSA E-news service, and this forum Have been used to get the word out.
First seems to be blocked by many Spam filters.
Second is affected by Spam filters to some degree , and pilots opting out of E- news.
Last limited by viewership of this site.
We would appreciate folks getting the word out to their friends to increase awareness and participation.
For the RC
UH
 




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