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Audio recording of RAF Lancaster under nightfighter attack



 
 
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  #21  
Old September 28th 03, 05:19 PM
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"M. J. Powell" wrote:

I don't remember any 'click' when the oxygen mask mic switch was used.
Some time early in the war the mic was changed from carbon to
moving-coil, using an extra amplifier in the intercom circuit.
Convention in my time was that only the pilot left his mic open all the
time, otherwise you got all the crew's breathing in your ears
continually.

Mike


Could be Mike, but you mention RAF and WW2 era. The RCAF used the
Lancaster X Maritime Reconnance version in the early to mid
fifties which indeed did still have hand held carbon mics. They
were the T-17 type and being young curious types we 'dismantled'
one and saw the carbon granules in the little pocket in there. We
were in ASW service so hardly ever wore O2 masks but I remember
that they also had those small round mics imbedded in the rubber.

Actually any intercom system (that I've used) will exhibit that
distinctive click and the hiss of background noise while the mic
is open. I recall searching for a stuck mic switch on an Argus
with maybe 20 intercom stations.

We used hot mic for takeoff and landing for the Pilots and F/E on
the Argus for instant comms. The hiss was annoying and was often
not used for that reason.

The Lanc model that we used carried a 'wire recorder' for the
sonobuoys which could likely have been wired to the intercom so
that's not a big deal but it didn't sound real to me. Mind you
now, I left Lancs nearly 50 years ago but I remember a lot about
them because I was young then and impressionable and I'm pretty
sure that that recording is fake...it's just much too quiet, no
engine noise at all...they were hellishly LOUD...the commands
just didn't sound 'right'...mind you they were RAF but still...

My considered opinion...fake...
--

-Gord.
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  #22  
Old September 28th 03, 05:26 PM
Tex Houston
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Posts: n/a
Default


"Gord Beaman" wrote in message
...
The Lanc model that we used carried a 'wire recorder' for the
sonobuoys which could likely have been wired to the intercom so
that's not a big deal but it didn't sound real to me. Mind you
now, I left Lancs nearly 50 years ago but I remember a lot about
them because I was young then and impressionable and I'm pretty
sure that that recording is fake...it's just much too quiet, no
engine noise at all...they were hellishly LOUD...the commands
just didn't sound 'right'...mind you they were RAF but still...

My considered opinion...fake...
--

-Gord.


While filming a television show where we protested "It didn't happen that
way" and I got some advice to live by from the director. "There's real life
and then there's television."

Tex Houston


  #23  
Old September 28th 03, 08:12 PM
Stolly
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To the extent that they faked the people standing in front of the aircraft
for the photograph and had many people in on the conspiracy who took the
secret to their graves including a very well know BBC reporter ?

Come on, if you don't belive this after all the evidence from multiple
places then i'm suprised you actually believe anything.

We have the people involved, the date, the unit, the equipment, and even a
picture taken on the day with the aircraft in the background with the right
markings on and you choose not to believe it because you think that the
English don't use the word "Bombardier"

My father was a Bombardier in the Royal Artillery btw. That was his rank.

"av8r" wrote in message
...
Hi Stolly

I'm still not convinced this is the real thing despite all the
testimonials otherwise. Why was the term 'Bombardier' used for
instance. Do you not think it could have been just a BBC studio
production for the folks back home who were starving for some positive
news in the night bomber campaign against Germany. It would have taken
very little effort to collect a crew and snap a few pix then pass it off
as the real deal.

Cheers...Chris



  #24  
Old September 28th 03, 08:41 PM
M. J. Powell
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

In message , "Gord
writes
"M. J. Powell" wrote:

I don't remember any 'click' when the oxygen mask mic switch was used.
Some time early in the war the mic was changed from carbon to
moving-coil, using an extra amplifier in the intercom circuit.
Convention in my time was that only the pilot left his mic open all the
time, otherwise you got all the crew's breathing in your ears
continually.

Mike


Could be Mike, but you mention RAF and WW2 era. The RCAF used the
Lancaster X Maritime Reconnance version in the early to mid
fifties which indeed did still have hand held carbon mics.


I am amazed! Even for low-level stuff where you didn't need the O2 the
need to occupy one hand with a mic seems very retrograde.

They
were the T-17 type and being young curious types we 'dismantled'
one and saw the carbon granules in the little pocket in there.


Yes, I remember seeing them on the surplus market in the late 40's.

We
were in ASW service so hardly ever wore O2 masks but I remember
that they also had those small round mics imbedded in the rubber.

Actually any intercom system (that I've used) will exhibit that
distinctive click and the hiss of background noise while the mic
is open. I recall searching for a stuck mic switch on an Argus
with maybe 20 intercom stations.

We used hot mic for takeoff and landing for the Pilots and F/E on
the Argus for instant comms. The hiss was annoying and was often
not used for that reason.

The Lanc model that we used carried a 'wire recorder' for the
sonobuoys which could likely have been wired to the intercom so
that's not a big deal but it didn't sound real to me.


Yes, I had my helmet wiring altered to provide a feed to a pocket
recorder.
We used the wire-recorders too. I forget the maker. I remember seeing a
F/O in an office passing 10" lengths of wire across the head of a
recorder to see what was on it after a crash. The take-up spool had been
bisected in the impact. He was writing down the contents of each length.

Mike
--
M.J.Powell
  #25  
Old September 28th 03, 09:11 PM
Stolly
external usenet poster
 
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Guys,

We have the name of the aircraft involved, its Squadron, the name of the BBC
guys that made the recording, a photo of them standing outside the aircraft
in question before the mission, pictures of the equipment they used, and the
date of the mission. We even know the eventual fate of the aircraft.

This is from multiple sources found by more than one person.

The 2 people that made the recording were BBC employees not members of the
services. The reporter in particular was a well known personality at the
time. I really do doubt that he would have been involved in a hoax for
propaganda reasons or any other and doubt even less that he would have kept
the secret for 40 years. He even mentioned this recording at a reunion of
207 squadron shortly before his death in the mid '80's.



"Gord Beaman" wrote in message
...
"M. J. Powell" wrote:

I don't remember any 'click' when the oxygen mask mic switch was used.
Some time early in the war the mic was changed from carbon to
moving-coil, using an extra amplifier in the intercom circuit.
Convention in my time was that only the pilot left his mic open all the
time, otherwise you got all the crew's breathing in your ears
continually.

Mike


Could be Mike, but you mention RAF and WW2 era. The RCAF used the
Lancaster X Maritime Reconnance version in the early to mid
fifties which indeed did still have hand held carbon mics. They
were the T-17 type and being young curious types we 'dismantled'
one and saw the carbon granules in the little pocket in there. We
were in ASW service so hardly ever wore O2 masks but I remember
that they also had those small round mics imbedded in the rubber.

Actually any intercom system (that I've used) will exhibit that
distinctive click and the hiss of background noise while the mic
is open. I recall searching for a stuck mic switch on an Argus
with maybe 20 intercom stations.

We used hot mic for takeoff and landing for the Pilots and F/E on
the Argus for instant comms. The hiss was annoying and was often
not used for that reason.

The Lanc model that we used carried a 'wire recorder' for the
sonobuoys which could likely have been wired to the intercom so
that's not a big deal but it didn't sound real to me. Mind you
now, I left Lancs nearly 50 years ago but I remember a lot about
them because I was young then and impressionable and I'm pretty
sure that that recording is fake...it's just much too quiet, no
engine noise at all...they were hellishly LOUD...the commands
just didn't sound 'right'...mind you they were RAF but still...

My considered opinion...fake...
--

-Gord.



  #26  
Old September 28th 03, 11:35 PM
Keith Willshaw
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Stolly" wrote in message
...
Guys,

We have the name of the aircraft involved, its Squadron, the name of the

BBC
guys that made the recording, a photo of them standing outside the

aircraft
in question before the mission, pictures of the equipment they used, and

the
date of the mission. We even know the eventual fate of the aircraft.

This is from multiple sources found by more than one person.

The 2 people that made the recording were BBC employees not members of the
services. The reporter in particular was a well known personality at the
time. I really do doubt that he would have been involved in a hoax for
propaganda reasons or any other and doubt even less that he would have

kept
the secret for 40 years. He even mentioned this recording at a reunion of
207 squadron shortly before his death in the mid '80's.


While I'm quite sure the report is based on the actual flight and
accurately records what happened there were numerous cases
during the war when incidents were re-enacted as the original was
simply not very impressive when broadcast or shown on the
cinema screen.

For example some of the more impressive shots of British Infantry
advancing at El-Alamein were re-enacted after the battle as cameras
of the day were incapable of captuting images of the required quality
at night.

I would'nt be at all surprised in this case if some parts of the sound
track were redubbed later to make the clearer.

Keith


  #27  
Old September 29th 03, 01:26 AM
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

"Keith Willshaw" wrote:


While I'm quite sure the report is based on the actual flight and
accurately records what happened there were numerous cases
during the war when incidents were re-enacted as the original was
simply not very impressive when broadcast or shown on the
cinema screen.

For example some of the more impressive shots of British Infantry
advancing at El-Alamein were re-enacted after the battle as cameras
of the day were incapable of captuting images of the required quality
at night.

I would'nt be at all surprised in this case if some parts of the sound
track were redubbed later to make the clearer.

Keith


Could be Keith...all I know is that for pretty damned sure that
recording wasn't made from a Lanc in flight. I listened to it
carefully several times and I'm convinced that it just couldn't
have been.

As I said, the Lanc is horrendously loud when in flight and
there's no trace of that distinctive sound that four Merlins make
when operating even at normal cruise power. There's no chance
that they could have filtered it that clean either cause there's
just no trace of the engines in it at all.

Some of the orders don't sit well with me either...the one where
the Pilot orders the Engineer to "Put the revs up", he likely
wouldn't have said it that way, more likely "Engineer, 2400 RPM
(or revs)" or somesuch. That sounds nitpicky I agree but "Put the
revs up" doesn't sit well with me. Sounds...well...fake.

I'm still convinced that it's not real.
--

-Gord.
  #28  
Old September 29th 03, 07:53 AM
Keith Willshaw
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Gord Beaman" wrote in message
...
"Keith Willshaw" wrote:


Could be Keith...all I know is that for pretty damned sure that
recording wasn't made from a Lanc in flight. I listened to it
carefully several times and I'm convinced that it just couldn't
have been.

As I said, the Lanc is horrendously loud when in flight and
there's no trace of that distinctive sound that four Merlins make
when operating even at normal cruise power. There's no chance
that they could have filtered it that clean either cause there's
just no trace of the engines in it at all.

Some of the orders don't sit well with me either...the one where
the Pilot orders the Engineer to "Put the revs up", he likely
wouldn't have said it that way, more likely "Engineer, 2400 RPM
(or revs)" or somesuch. That sounds nitpicky I agree but "Put the
revs up" doesn't sit well with me. Sounds...well...fake.

I'm still convinced that it's not real.
--


Its possible that what happened is that when the recording got
back to broadcasting house some producer decided that
the recording was too low a quality to use and got
a couple of actors to play the part.

It is a matter of record that Wynford Vaughan Thomas DID
fly that mission and took a sound engineer with him.

The sound engineer was Reg Pidsey and he used disc
recorders not a wire recorder

http://www.roger.beckwith.btinternet...r/wr_intro.htm

Keith


  #29  
Old September 29th 03, 08:25 AM
Blair Maynard
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1


"Keith Willshaw" wrote in message
...


Its possible that what happened is that when the recording got
back to broadcasting house some producer decided that
the recording was too low a quality to use and got
a couple of actors to play the part.

It is a matter of record that Wynford Vaughan Thomas DID
fly that mission and took a sound engineer with him.

The sound engineer was Reg Pidsey and he used disc
recorders not a wire recorder

http://www.roger.beckwith.btinternet...r/wr_intro.htm

Keith


The lack of engine noise is rather odd. One would expect anybody trying to
fake such a recording would be quite capable of adding it.

It is obvious that people talk over each other, so either they are all in
the same room, or they have a full duplex system. Actually, it sounded like
they all had open mics. We don't hear much in the way of non-vocal noises
other than the machinegun bursts. Presumably that burst was picked up by a
mic which was open although nobody was speaking, so there had to be at least
one open mic, since they didn't have voice-activated mics back then.

Some of these things may be explicable. We would need to know the location
and recording characteristics of the recording device and how it was hooked
up to the comm system of the aircraft. And information about the comm system
of this aircraft to see if such a conversation was even possible. The nature
of the device could explain why the engine noise didn't get recorded. Early
recorders were probably not very good at recording low frequency sounds. It
may also explain why the machine gun sounds so tinny.

I don't think the crew was incredibly calm in that situation. They are
flying
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  #30  
Old September 29th 03, 09:10 AM
reading.news.pipex.net
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

It may be that the recording was "cleaned up" before broadcast.

Lets not forget though that the recording was done on the night of 3/4 Sept
and broadcast the very next night on the evening of the 4th.

The aircraft would have landed around 6am on the 4th at RAF Spilsby. This
is near Skegness in Lincolnshire, around 3 hours drive from the BBC
broadcasting center in London (Crystal Palace in WWII IIRC) so the recording
would have arrived at the studio around 9am to be generous.

That doesn't leave much time for any re-recording with actors wouldn't you
agree ? Maybe time to edit the recording but not anything else.

"Blair Maynard" wrote in message
...

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1


"Keith Willshaw" wrote in message
...


Its possible that what happened is that when the recording got
back to broadcasting house some producer decided that
the recording was too low a quality to use and got
a couple of actors to play the part.

It is a matter of record that Wynford Vaughan Thomas DID
fly that mission and took a sound engineer with him.

The sound engineer was Reg Pidsey and he used disc
recorders not a wire recorder

http://www.roger.beckwith.btinternet...r/wr_intro.htm

Keith


The lack of engine noise is rather odd. One would expect anybody trying to
fake such a recording would be quite capable of adding it.

It is obvious that people talk over each other, so either they are all in
the same room, or they have a full duplex system. Actually, it sounded

like
they all had open mics. We don't hear much in the way of non-vocal noises
other than the machinegun bursts. Presumably that burst was picked up by a
mic which was open although nobody was speaking, so there had to be at

least
one open mic, since they didn't have voice-activated mics back then.

Some of these things may be explicable. We would need to know the location
and recording characteristics of the recording device and how it was

hooked
up to the comm system of the aircraft. And information about the comm

system
of this aircraft to see if such a conversation was even possible. The

nature
of the device could explain why the engine noise didn't get recorded.

Early
recorders were probably not very good at recording low frequency sounds.

It
may also explain why the machine gun sounds so tinny.

I don't think the crew was incredibly calm in that situation. They are
flying
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Version: PGP 8.0

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=Jzqw
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----





 




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