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#21
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Condor
Tony,
That's a very cool simulator. Congratulations to those who made it. I hope you make good use of it. Bill D |
#22
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Condor
I find it interesting that no one in the power world talks about Microsoft Flight Simulator or X-Plane being great for teaching yourself how to fly. The opposite generally seems to be true, CFI's comment that the simmers can read the instruments, but can't really fly in a 3D world.
I believe that a simulator, supervised by an instructor, can be a useful introduction to lessons before flying them. I used MS FSX when teaching an instrument ground school a few years ago. My students, who were all experienced VFR pilots, thought it was great. The January issue of Soaring had a Condor article along the lines of "I taught myself winch launching and I felt so prepared when I did it for real." More than half my flights are via winch launch and nothing I've seen simulated approaches the real thing. The current issue of the German magazine Segelfliegen has a rather anti-simulator article written by a physician. The basic premise is that in emergencies we react the way we've practiced. The first time someone tries to get out of a spin by twisting the stick to be the rudders there will be a bad outcome. Other shortcomings of simulator training/practice/self study are detailed. I emailed Chuck Coyne offering to translate the article if he's interested in running it, but no answer. Imagine a new soaring student spending ten supervised minutes practicing aerotow just before a first flight, or even before each of the first several flights. I can see rapid progress there. The night before my IFR checkride I practice flew the cross-country flight I had been told to plan. I didn't make any of the mistakes on the checkride that I did in practice - they were all new! So, I'm not opposed to sims as fun, as an interesting technical challenge, and a teaching tool under the right circumstances. I get really, really tired of Condor-is-better-than-sliced-bread, the world can hardly live without Condor page after page after page. I'd much rather skip it every other issue or quarterly instead of monthly. Thread drift, but related to the magazine. I find it interesting that the reported statistics indicate that very few pilots are interesting in competition, but page after page of contest details keep showing up. Boring. Editors of publications like Soaring complain they can only print what they get. I submitted a couple articles that were well received by everyone who read them, I withdrew them after almost two years of promises, including one "please review this because I'm going to use it in the [ground launch] issue then it was a no show. I've put a couple people in touch with the magazine about some interesting topics challenging the standard perception of stall/spin accidents (accident pictures often show the results of what was likely an inverted spin...) or a neat potential article based on a presentation by an olympic team-level sports optician about selecting proper sunglasses suitable for soaring (contrast, protect depth perception, color/tint selection, etc.). The Germans and the Brits turn out big, glossy, interesting magazines. Why can't we have the same? I don't want to turn into a nattering nabob of negativity. Detour over... Terry |
#23
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Condor
On Monday, March 11, 2013 7:36:17 PM UTC-6, Terry Pitts wrote:
I find it interesting that no one in the power world talks about Microsoft Flight Simulator or X-Plane being great for teaching yourself how to fly. The opposite generally seems to be true, CFI's comment that the simmers can read the instruments, but can't really fly in a 3D world. That's because the "power world" has far better simulator options. BTW, "airplane" works for me. I actually haven't heard any negative comments. The CAP airplane Cadet orientation ride pilots seems to speak in awe of how well the kids with sim experience do. My experience with the cadets in glider is the same. |
#24
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Condor
On Mar 11, 5:14*pm, Bill D wrote:
That's a very cool simulator. *Congratulations to those who made it. *I hope you make good use of it. +1 B. |
#25
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Condor
Folks,
Here is my take on Condor. I have been flying it for 7.5 years, before I soloed and a lot after. I have seen all the Good, the Bad and the Ugly when it comes to learning to fly with the simulator. Condor is an excellent tool for teaching concepts. I see it as a good tool for an instructor to show what they will be doing in a flight, such as boxing the wake, or a rope break, and then having the student practice and learn the concept, and do it in reality. For primary training, it can be a very useful tool if supervised by a competent instructor. I flew Condor for many years before I learned to fly unsupervised. Because of this, I acquired a couple bad habits that I had to break in my real life flying. On landing, I would move the spoilers too much, I used to move the stick too much, and for a while I would be glued to the panel. I would say that after solo, it took me a little longer to learn how to thermal because of some of the bad habits I learned in the simulator. HOWEVER! Once, I learned how to thermal and fly the ridge, all the of the advanced cross country training and competition I have done over the years kicked right in. Remember, Condor is intended to be a competition simulator, not a training sim. Once I was ready to go for Silver Distance, I had no issue going XC, sine I have done it so much in the simulator. Judging glideslope, wind direction, thermal placement; all was learned in the simulator. As a result, I was able to do more and more ambitious cross countries in a short period of time, since I had so much already figured out due to Condor.. I went from Silver Distance in August 2011 to Diamond Distance in April 2012, and winning contest days at my first contest in July 2012. That would have been IMPOSSIBLE without the excellent benefits of Condor. More importantly, in those hard times as a kid unable to get out to the airport, it kept me interested in the sport and kept me going. I think Condor's immense benefits negate some of its minor issues, and those issues can be easily dealt with if they are approached correctly. So there you have it... Regards, Daniel Sazhin |
#26
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Condor
For everyone talking about Condor being a _bad_ idea for training, I
keep seeing one constant thread running through those comments: The idea that someone will "learn the wrong way" to do something. Or that they will "play" in Condor instead of "learn" in Condor. The point is that Condor is a TOOL. Much like a wrench is a TOOL. It can be used properly, and it can be used improperly. You can learn bad habits in Condor just like you can screw up a bunch of nails by trying to use a wrench to drive them into a wall (instead of using a hammer). Or, to bring this a little closer to home for the CFIGs out the Improper use of Condor is no different from the improper use of props and visual aids in a ground-school session. If you're an instructor (like "Echo" in this thread) and you see a student do something stupid and claim they've done it in Condor, then YOU - the instructor - have a duty to talk to the student and get them using the tool properly (or not at all). Don't blame the simulator for the student's misuse of it. When you read about a fuel-starvation accident do you blame the airplane for not having big enough gas tanks? No, you blame the pilot for bad planning or not properly fueling the airplane. --Noel |
#27
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Condor
Instructors use many "tools" in addition to actual flight training...we
have use these for years: Books (written word) Spoken word Photographs diagrams charts video models Condor is just a progression of all of those. Cookie At 22:37 12 March 2013, noel.wade wrote: For everyone talking about Condor being a _bad_ idea for training, I keep seeing one constant thread running through those comments: The idea that someone will "learn the wrong way" to do something. Or that they will "play" in Condor instead of "learn" in Condor. The point is that Condor is a TOOL. Much like a wrench is a TOOL. It can be used properly, and it can be used improperly. You can learn bad habits in Condor just like you can screw up a bunch of nails by trying to use a wrench to drive them into a wall (instead of using a hammer). Or, to bring this a little closer to home for the CFIGs out the Improper use of Condor is no different from the improper use of props and visual aids in a ground-school session. If you're an instructor (like "Echo" in this thread) and you see a student do something stupid and claim they've done it in Condor, then YOU - the instructor - have a duty to talk to the student and get them using the tool properly (or not at all). Don't blame the simulator for the student's misuse of it. When you read about a fuel-starvation accident do you blame the airplane for not having big enough gas tanks? No, you blame the pilot for bad planning or not properly fueling the airplane. --Noel |
#28
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Condor
As a “senior” student pilot, with 25 years of powered ultralight and ultralight glider flying experience yet only now going for my PPGL so I can fly a “real” sailplane, I have found Condor to be very useful in my learning process. When I first started lessons I did 2 or 3 training flights one day a weekend. Then nothing until the next weekend. I was not progressing all that well with cross-wind aero-tow take-offs and landings, with just the few seconds each flight to learn how to deal with them. Then someone at the club suggested Condor. So I set up a system and started flying several times during the week. It allowed me to explore the dynamics of most flight maneuvers by trying things to see what happened, until I figured out what was going on. Then with a lot of practice, my correct reactions became more automatic. The Condor sessions also allowed me to stay focused on flying during the week, so I was ready to go the first flight of the next real-life session. My flying quickly improved after that. Now I mostly fly Condor set to strong (gusty) winds, so I have to keep my head out of the cockpit and watch the horizon and ground all the time to control my speed and direction. Then with only time for an occasional glance at the panel, it helped me to learn to read and interpret the instruments quickly. Also I set Condor up with LK8000 on a PDA and have been learning some of the issues of cross-country flying, which has been a lot of fun too. Maybe Condor is not that great for starting students, I don't know, but it sure helped me in my situation. |
#29
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Condor
Good information coming out here... thanks.
But what about Scott's assertion that scratch students ought to be empowered to teach themselves how to fly using Condor? That's what I'm skeptical about. Emergency procedures? I can see using Condor to pre-view and re-view a lesson plan *with an instructor*. If it becomes the lesson plan, if it's self directed, I call BS. I have no problem with students practicing this stuff between lessons. I think the bennies called out here by others are valid. Part of the instructor's *essential* involvement here (this is so obvious) is to say "right, this here is a procedures trainer, we're going to use it to train *procedures*, and btw, reality can be a little more complicated". A good friend of mine... with about 4000 hours in everything from hang gliders to twin turbo props stalled (at 3000 agl) / spun / spiral dove his 18m sailplane right into the ground after pulling the wings off a few years ago. Multiple witnesses. There's only one plausible reason and that's failure to provide the correct control inputs. Probably, he skated on some aspect of training in gliders.... My $0.02 T8 |
#30
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Condor
On Tuesday, March 12, 2013 6:02:16 PM UTC-6, Evan Ludeman wrote:
Good information coming out here... thanks. But what about Scott's assertion that scratch students ought to be empowered to teach themselves how to fly using Condor? That's what I'm skeptical about. Emergency procedures? I can see using Condor to pre-view and re-view a lesson plan *with an instructor*. If it becomes the lesson plan, if it's self directed, I call BS. Condor is pretty good at punishing bad habits so I really can't see that as a problem. Fly it right or you crash. Gliders 'stall', 'spin', suffer wing flutter, 'lose their wings' and generally 'crash' for the same reasons real gliders do. If you indulge in multi-player flying, you can even suffer mid-air collisions. While I haven't seen any bad habits develop, I have seen it unduly frighten students who have 'crashed'. That's where an instructor can help. I think a bigger issue is where the typical 14 years old is a Condor expert and the typical 50+ instructor looks bad because he can't fly the damned PC simulator. That's generating some Condor "bad mouthing". So, can someone "teach themselves to fly" with Condor? That depends on what you mean. They can learn fly well enough to perform PTS maneuvers to PP-G standards but no DPE would mistake them as ready to receive a certificate.. There's no substitute for real-world flying with an instructor to develop finesse and most of all confidence. I don't think Scott said any different. I see the real benefit as cutting the number of flights and hours back toward the FAA minimum to receive their certificate. A good friend of mine... with about 4000 hours in everything from hang gliders to twin turbo props stalled (at 3000 agl) / spun / spiral dove his 18m sailplane right into the ground after pulling the wings off a few years ago. Multiple witnesses. There's only one plausible reason and that's failure to provide the correct control inputs. Probably, he skated on some aspect of training in gliders.... I'm very sorry to hear that. I've had the misfortune to see two such in-flight breakups. Maybe if your friend had spent winters flying Condor, it wouldn't have happened. |
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