Tow Tracker

On Tuesday, March 8, 2016 at 2:15:06 PM UTC-5, Steve Thompson wrote:
Surely if you charge by altitude (or rather- height) the lighter gliders
will be
subsidising the heavier, probably 2 seat gliders? You may wish to do that.
But
time seems fairer to me.

I believe the UK generally does Height, while France in my experience does

Hobbs time.

At 18:21 08 March 2016, kirk.stant wrote:
On Monday, March 7, 2016 at 11:13:11 PM UTC-6, Surge wrote:
On Tuesday, 8 March 2016 05:08:50 UTC+2, Dan Marotta wrote:
There's no need for take off and landing times of the tug.
=20
Unless you're at a club which charges aerotow fees based on the time
the
=
tug is airborne.

I'm not sure I fully understand the logic in charging by time instead of
al=
titude - unless your glider pilots are in the habit of hanging on to a
tow?=
Seems to put the glider pilot at the mercy of the weather and tow pilot
sk=
ill...

Our club charges by altitude, and solve the problem of bookkeeping by
makin=
g the glider pilot himself responsible for filling in his release
altitude.=
If he forgets, a standard 3000' fee is charged - usually a pretty good
de=
terrent! We do have to log pilot and times, and are looking for a more
high=
-tech solution than clipboard and pencil - but I'm not holding my breath
;=
^)

Kirk
66


We bill both ways (although one is far more common in practice),
and I suspect we're like a lot. We bill normal tows by altitude
but cross country retrieval is billed by Hobbs time.

Matt

Kingaroy uses Dittolog,

http://www.dittolog.com

It is an awesome system that does everything, we have had very few issues with it. Probably the hardest bit is getting private owners to register their FLARM in the system so they can be charged, no matter which system you choose this will always be an issue is you have less than enthusiastic pilots. Our way around it was to place a $30.00 fee on top of the tow charge, it's written in our manual very very clearly so there can be no argument.

Originally Posted by Giaco

I have started tinkering around with the idea of developing a Tow-tracking for clubs to use that would not interfere with operations yet still be able to provide an upgrade to having a dedicated logger try and confirm release altitudes.

My current thought is to have a cell phone app that talks to bluetooth sensors mounted in the towplanes. The Wing runner/logger would enter in the pilot/glider info, then transmit the data to the tow. The towplane unit would take that log file and record the tow height (assuming max altitude) and save it to the file, which would then be transmitted back to the logger when the tow lands, and the next pilot log is entered. The logger should be able to upload all the files at the end of the day, with accurate tow heights without asking the tow pilots to record it.

Thoughts? Potential Problems? Interested in helping? The objective of this would that it would be a free app for the community at large with the hardware designs published as well.

I understand there will be the standard cry of "we have always used a pen and paper and it worked just fine," but that isn't the intent of the question being posed..

Respectfully, I believe there are issues that need to be addressed before you spend the effort creating the app...

1) Rope Runner uses dedicated "club" cell phone and app to enter in pilot info, glider info, and selects which towplane is coming (if more than one)..
-cost to club to purchase and maintain cell phone and cell data package
-spare phone when the Rope Runner takes the primary home
-spare battery (or 2) when the phone runs out of power
-ability to correct input errors of Rope Runner (no billing errors)

2) When the tow comes within bluetooth range, the phone makes the connection to the tow tracker, and the pilots transmits either the data or a unique id for that flight to the tow.
-cost and installation of tow tracker (and GPS / barograph system) in each tow plane
-spare tow tracker (plug and play) if primary fails
-requested tow altitude to be voice transmitted to tow pilot by radio prior to launch

3) The towplane launches, with either an onboard GPS or simple barograph and records the flight. On landing, the device calculates the maximum altitude (or tow time as some clubs use) and assigns that value in a packet with the rest of the flight data.
-immediate ability of tow pilot to correct tow altitude and/or time when the glider got off tow and tow pilot missed the glider release

4) When the towplane comes back into range and the rope runner re-connects, the completed log is downloaded to the handheld device and the next partial log is sent to the tow.

Thus both the device memory and handheld (cellphone) should both have records of the flights, but the app should be able to upload via .csv or other formats quickly at the end of the day (or real time if you really want). I suppose it could be a laptop or any other sort of device that acts as the master/server.

It is quickly becoming apparent that the logging responsibility varies greatly among different clubs!

-IMO, the collected data needs to interface directly with the club billing software to issue an appropriate invoice to the glider pilot. Otherwise, the added costs and issues listed above render the App an expensive alternative to pen and tow ticket.
Craig

On Tuesday, March 8, 2016 at 12:43:36 PM UTC-8, wrote:
On Tuesday, March 8, 2016 at 2:15:06 PM UTC-5, Steve Thompson wrote:
Surely if you charge by altitude (or rather- height) the lighter gliders
will be
subsidising the heavier, probably 2 seat gliders? You may wish to do that.
But
time seems fairer to me.

I believe the UK generally does Height, while France in my experience does

Hobbs time.

At 18:21 08 March 2016, kirk.stant wrote:
On Monday, March 7, 2016 at 11:13:11 PM UTC-6, Surge wrote:
On Tuesday, 8 March 2016 05:08:50 UTC+2, Dan Marotta wrote:
There's no need for take off and landing times of the tug.
=20
Unless you're at a club which charges aerotow fees based on the time
the
=
tug is airborne.

I'm not sure I fully understand the logic in charging by time instead of
al=
titude - unless your glider pilots are in the habit of hanging on to a
tow?=
Seems to put the glider pilot at the mercy of the weather and tow pilot
sk=
ill...

Our club charges by altitude, and solve the problem of bookkeeping by
makin=
g the glider pilot himself responsible for filling in his release
altitude.=
If he forgets, a standard 3000' fee is charged - usually a pretty good
de=
terrent! We do have to log pilot and times, and are looking for a more
high=
-tech solution than clipboard and pencil - but I'm not holding my breath
;=
^)

Kirk
66


We bill both ways (although one is far more common in practice),
and I suspect we're like a lot. We bill normal tows by altitude
but cross country retrieval is billed by Hobbs time.

Matt


Maybe you cold sign all of the towplanes/tow pilots up as Uber drivers, then Uber would do the billing for you automatically - based on time and distance.

[just kidding]

9B

On Tuesday, 8 March 2016 20:56:51 UTC+2, Steve Leonard wrote:
Another flaw with charging by time is those towpilots that want to "build time" or take longer to get back after the glider gets off, or keep on climbing even after the glider released, etc. No system will be perfect.

Going a bit OT now but:
Billing on time (Hobbs or stop watch) isn't perfect but it's the closest way to bill according to the operating cost of a tug. The more engine time on the tug the higher the fuel cost and the shorter the inspection/maintenance intervals.

We don't have problems with tug pilots trying to "build time" and in any case time based fees are a great deterrent to people dawdling. If the glider pilot get's a massive aerotow charge he will make sure that the tug pilot doesn't decide to do any short cross country flights at his expense again. With a height based fee structure a 2000 foot tow could take 5 minutes or 30 minutes depending on the tug pilot and in the end the club would carry the cost.

Time based also means that the glider pilot can release any time he has a thermal so quite often a 4 to 5 minute aerotow is all that is required and costs the glider pilot about $14 USD. Most tows are around 8 minutes long (~2000 feet AGL) and cost about $23 USD (and I'm at one of the more expensive clubs in South Africa).

Surge it looks like its time for me to immigrate to south africa, here in the Southeast US I am paying around $40 for a 2k tow. Any top dressing (crop dusting) jobs down your way? If so I'll be packing my bags and shipping the old 1-26 your way.
Dan

There are definitely top dressing jobs going.

On 2016-03-09 13:13, wrote:
Surge it looks like its time for me to immigrate to south africa, here in the Southeast US I am paying around $40 for a 2k tow. Any top dressing (crop dusting) jobs down your way? If so I'll be packing my bags and shipping the old 1-26 your way.
Dan


--
Bruce Greeff
T59D #1771

On Sunday, March 6, 2016 at 9:57:57 PM UTC-5, Giaco wrote:
I have started tinkering around with the idea of developing a Tow-tracking for clubs to use that would not interfere with operations yet still be able to provide an upgrade to having a dedicated logger try and confirm release altitudes.

My current thought is to have a cell phone app that talks to bluetooth sensors mounted in the towplanes. The Wing runner/logger would enter in the pilot/glider info, then transmit the data to the tow. The towplane unit would take that log file and record the tow height (assuming max altitude) and save it to the file, which would then be transmitted back to the logger when the tow lands, and the next pilot log is entered. The logger should be able to upload all the files at the end of the day, with accurate tow heights without asking the tow pilots to record it.

Thoughts? Potential Problems? Interested in helping? The objective of this would that it would be a free app for the community at large with the hardware designs published as well.

I understand there will be the standard cry of "we have always used a pen and paper and it worked just fine," but that isn't the intent of the question being posed..

In our operation the line crew has the responsibility for safe and efficient launching. Being distracted by a phone function or such would lead, in my view to a potentially much less safe operation. Logging is another function.

On Wednesday, March 9, 2016 at 5:48:42 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Sunday, March 6, 2016 at 9:57:57 PM UTC-5, Giaco wrote:
I have started tinkering around with the idea of developing a Tow-tracking for clubs to use that would not interfere with operations yet still be able to provide an upgrade to having a dedicated logger try and confirm release altitudes.

My current thought is to have a cell phone app that talks to bluetooth sensors mounted in the towplanes. The Wing runner/logger would enter in the pilot/glider info, then transmit the data to the tow. The towplane unit would take that log file and record the tow height (assuming max altitude) and save it to the file, which would then be transmitted back to the logger when the tow lands, and the next pilot log is entered. The logger should be able to upload all the files at the end of the day, with accurate tow heights without asking the tow pilots to record it.

Thoughts? Potential Problems? Interested in helping? The objective of this would that it would be a free app for the community at large with the hardware designs published as well.

I understand there will be the standard cry of "we have always used a pen and paper and it worked just fine," but that isn't the intent of the question being posed..

In our operation the line crew has the responsibility for safe and efficient launching. Being distracted by a phone function or such would lead, in my view to a potentially much less safe operation. Logging is another function.
During rush hour we are doing between 12 and 14 launches and hour, recovering those tugs, and recovering about 1/2 the gliders. with the line crew handling this there is not time for other stuff.
In our operation it is up to the glider pilot to report tow altitude by radio, or provide to the log keeper after the flight. Failure to provide tow altitude generates a charge for a 5000 foot tow. It rarely happens.
Old school operator
UH

Hank, I'm not sure this would fundamentally challenge how you are operating if you already have a dedicated person logging... this would just make their life easier and cut down on radio chatter, as they could log the pilots as they are preparing for takeoff...unless I'm misunderstanding the responsibilities of your logger.

I think the benefit to this logging is probably greater for larger clubs and those with fast and efficient lines, as opposed to clubs with tow planes that sit on the ground idling for minutes at a time between tows.

It should be an interesting project, i'll report back after seeing if it ends up being a worthwhile endeavor for our club.

On Sunday, March 6, 2016 at 9:57:57 PM UTC-5, Giaco wrote:
I have started tinkering around with the idea of developing a Tow-tracking for clubs to use that would not interfere with operations yet still be able to provide an upgrade to having a dedicated logger try and confirm release altitudes.

My current thought is to have a cell phone app that talks to bluetooth sensors mounted in the towplanes. The Wing runner/logger would enter in the pilot/glider info, then transmit the data to the tow. The towplane unit would take that log file and record the tow height (assuming max altitude) and save it to the file, which would then be transmitted back to the logger when the tow lands, and the next pilot log is entered. The logger should be able to upload all the files at the end of the day, with accurate tow heights without asking the tow pilots to record it.

Thoughts? Potential Problems? Interested in helping? The objective of this would that it would be a free app for the community at large with the hardware designs published as well.

I understand there will be the standard cry of "we have always used a pen and paper and it worked just fine," but that isn't the intent of the question being posed..

1) Consider the failure mode first. First, what if the bluetooth connections don't work? Second what happens if for some reason the tow simply doesn't record -for example, the system quits working for some reason. How does that get found out and how can it be corrected manually? You don't want the ground crew futzing with the automated logging system while gliders are waiting or engines are running.

2) The whole transmit back and forth process sounds slightly complex and requires sensors. Keep it simple. How about the app can scan a QR code or bar code through the built in camera? A QR code could be affixed to the window of the tow tug and glider but also duplicated on a clipboard on the golf cart for backup. Each pilot can be assigned a QR or bar code like you see on key fobs. Of course, pilots will forget their codes, so also include lookup as a possibility.

3) Record time or height? Line person can enter this manually. For operations that charge by altitude, it should be easy (1k, 2k, 3k checkbox). For time, enter it when the tug lands. Or have some kind of stopwatch function that allows entry of start and end of tow. Or simpler, since tow times are usually known by glider, just allow 4min, 5min, 6min to be entered.

4) If you want to add automation, if the tugs have ADS-B, use a receiver on the ground to get the data from the towplane and automatically enter it.