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#21
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John Carrier wrote:
"Guy Alcala" wrote in message . .. snip My thanks to you and Pechs. My question was based around the Iraqi bugout to Iran in DS, when F-15s were sometimes unable to close into AIM-7 range in a tail chase of Iraqis at high Q on the deck (I've seen claims of 700 kts for some, probably MiG-23s or Fitters, with F-15s firing AIM-7s at 650KCAS @ 12,000 feet). Any opinions on whether the F-14 or F-15 had better endurance at say M1.2-1.4 @ ca. 12kft, once they accelerated to that speed? I figure the AIM-54 would give them a fair range advantage tail-on, but whether it was enough to overcome the slower accel due to the drag of carrying a couple, I don't know. 650??? I've had F-8's, F-4's and F-14's all faster. The Turkey is a legitimate 800 knot airplane down low. As to 1.2-1.4 supersonic endurance, the Turkey hands down. OTOH, Buffaloes are never a good weapon for fighter vs fighter, even in a tail chase. Thanks to you and everyone else for their comments. Guy |
#23
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On 12/17/04 7:09, in article , "John
Carrier" wrote: "Woody Beal" wrote in message ... On 12/16/04 14:45, in article , "John Carrier" wrote: SNIP Seriously, John, I've never been shot in a multi-plane engagement (2v2 or less at the merge) because I was slow. Quite the contrary, I was too busy shooting bogies. Did I state or imply 2 v 2? "Never" is a far too popular word in the fighter pilot's vocabulary. Unfortunately, in today's dumbed down ACM training, more than 4 jets turning at a merge is considered verbotten (yes, I disagree with this). I think I've used the word "never" appropriately here as it implies "didn't ever happen." In other words, I've been shot in the 2v2, but being slow wasn't a factor. Sometimes being fast was. Make the energy excursion quickly and intelligently. Take quick shots. Lock both arms. Get the knots back. Move on. Uh huh. John This discussion cracks me up, my friend. I'd have liked nothing better than to have met you in a MOA to demonstrate--too bad our careers didn't intersect more. --Woody |
#24
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Ed writes- But, you throw in the "200 or so knots" and there is no doubt of
two things: 1.) the Tom would do very well in that regime, and 2.) no fighter pilot of the period should ever by flying combat at that speed! BRBR I answer-you bet!! Our .motto' in VF-126, Pacific Fleet Adversary Squadron was 'we're behind you all the way'. Meaning the obvious but also no better way to show that getting slow, even in a 1v1, with a better slow speed A/C was DUMB. We saw this all the time early in training scearios but often beat this outta the fighter guys(USN and USAF) after they got spanked a few times. Nothing more embarassing than gettting gunned by an A/C 40 years old(A-4) while in the 'wondermachine'-F-14/15/16/18- P. C. Chisholm CDR, USN(ret.) Old Phart Phormer Phantom, Turkey, Viper, Scooter and Combat Buckeye Phlyer |
#25
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John mentions- IME, the best BFM machine in the US inventory is the Hornet.
Certainly the best in a high alpha, min radius phone booth. OTOH, the F-14B/D can move the fight inexorably upward to a kill. BRBR Nope-the new Pakastani F-16s that just arrived in Fallon.... P. C. Chisholm CDR, USN(ret.) Old Phart Phormer Phantom, Turkey, Viper, Scooter and Combat Buckeye Phlyer |
#26
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Sparky,
Great story! I sorta recall Roy Lundeen. If my memory hasn't totally failed he joined the Lizards as a nugget during our 1974 turnaround, during my last months there. -- Mike Kanze 436 Greenbrier Road Half Moon Bay, California 94019-2259 USA 650-726-7890 "France deserves to be annoyed by as many people as possible, as often as possible, if only for encouraging Jerry Lewis by telling him that he was a genius." - Ian Robinson, CALGARY SUN, 11/14/2004 "Elmshoot" wrote in message ... There's got to be some great stories about bagging an ace, or like you said Ed, taking out an Eagle in a Talon. Or a Scooter bagging a Hornet. Or even an Intruder or 'Vaark getting the drop on someone! So let me grab you a pint, pull up a chair, and let the bragging begin! "There I was..." Tony Tony, There I was in MAWS Medium Attack Warefare school at Whidbey. I think it was mid 80's They sometimes called MAWS Top Bomb. Cdr Roy Lundean was OIC of the school. Other than bombing we also talked about AA stuff and considerations for getting the bad guys to go some place else while you pressed the target to kill a lot of bad guys. Instead of killing one at a time. Our graduation flight was: We had a joint (USAF) attack at Saylor Creek at mountain home AFB the mission was High altitude transit and rendevous with the Varks over Baker VOR Then to the entry point of the low level 200 miles of low altitude with the Varks detaching about 1/2 way around since we didn't go fast enough. Low altitude delivery on various tgts in the range then off target to Mountain home for a landing. I was the strike lead of 8 Intuders and I think there were 4 Varks. I think our load out was constructive Rockeyes and one Aim 9. On the Intruder we could only do boresight shots with the heater. We actually had a few blue tubes so I got one hung on my plane as well as some of the other Intruders. Our tactic during the low altitude was called the goose. I was in the front my wing man was 1 mile at my 6 the rest were in battle box 1 mile abeam each other on back. Roy was dash last so he could evaluate and keep an eye on things. We were opposed by Vipers from Hill AFB. So everything is going great off on the Low level the Varks take a split We see the vipers way up high and they don't see us and go after the varks. About that time we are cooking along at about 420 and here comes 2 F-4's across my nose right to left at about 1 mile. I couldn't believe my luck. (Later we learned they were just some Happy Hooligans out on a low level that crossed through the MOA) About the time I saw them they saw me. I called on tactical the interlopers and decided that I would take a shot at the lead. I had my BN set up the AIM-9 on the ACU, Master Arm ON The lead started a climbing left turn against a clear blue sky I pulled up got a tone took a shot then rolled back right and resumed the LL my wingman shot the F-4 wing man and he resumed. Since they saw us make a move on them they started to return the favor I'm sure at some point when they looked down and relazed the armada of Intruders they just started to roll in on us and after about 3 attacks Roy comes up on guard and tells them to go away they are already dead. Mean while the goose makes it to the Tgt good bombs on tgt. They have smoky sams being shot at us. what fun! We land at Mountain Home and go to the bunker for the debrief. So there is my F-4 kill story. Mean while the Vark guys come in all PO'ed because the viper guys called a shot on them from like 2 miles astearn with 100 knots opening. These Vark guys are screaming in the phone about the BS shot and the viper guys finally admitt that it wasn't a good shot so they were suppost to send them some money. After that we all loaded up and went out to Scrubbys BBQ just off base. Really good place and we always made it a point to go there for lunch on our stops through Mountain Home. Sparky |
#27
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LOL- an aerial armada of Intruders! I bet they never, ever, saw that
coming! Cheers, Tony |
#28
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LOL- an aerial armada of Intruders! I bet they never, ever, saw that
coming! Cheers, Tony, If they had turned us loose in Iran in the mid 80's... Yep in training it was fun!!! Sparky |
#29
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John, Ed -- enough already...
....the thread was about the relative performance of two prominent US fighters, not the relevance of BFM in multi-bogey environments. BFM training still goes on -- the Hornet is the best BFM platform in the US inventory (pre-F22, pre-AIM-9X etc). Properly used, its ability to "point" negates the Ps advantage resident in some other jets, including the B/D Tomcats. "Ed Rasimus" wrote in message news On Thu, 16 Dec 2004 14:45:01 -0600, "John Carrier" wrote: SNIP IME, the best BFM machine in the US inventory is the Hornet. Certainly the best in a high alpha, min radius phone booth. OTOH, the F-14B/D can move the fight inexorably upward to a kill. Hard to do, wasteful of gas and time (to say nothing of what this kind of engagement looks like to everyone else near the arena), but doable. In a real-world multi-bogey fight, such a dazzling display would probably result in two fireballs. R / John And, with that truism, the prosecution rests. Ed Rasimus Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret) "When Thunder Rolled" www.thunderchief.org |
#30
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On Mon, 20 Dec 2004 22:11:59 GMT, "Frijoles"
wrote: John, Ed -- enough already... ...the thread was about the relative performance of two prominent US fighters, not the relevance of BFM in multi-bogey environments. BFM training still goes on -- the Hornet is the best BFM platform in the US inventory (pre-F22, pre-AIM-9X etc). Properly used, its ability to "point" negates the Ps advantage resident in some other jets, including the B/D Tomcats. BFM is always relevant to a greater or lesser degree, but if you want to talk "relative performane" you've got to throw in a lot of stuff--T/W, rate/radius, endurance, range, weapons available and don't forget the ROE. When you get to the "teen fighters" there isn't a whole lot of difference in the basic numbers. Vipers, Eagles, Toms and Bugs all do a pretty good job and on any given day, one or the other will reign supreme. Pride in your system is good, but there aren't many absolutes in discussion of "The best BFM platform in the US inventory". Now, there was that day on the White Sands Missile Range that I caught a pair of early vintage Hornets mucking about at low level over the Trinity site. Got about 35 feet of film in my AT-38 without them apparently even knowing that they were becoming movie stars. IMHO. Ed Rasimus Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret) "When Thunder Rolled" www.thunderchief.org |
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