Flarm and stealth

whether to require stealth mode in competitions is being actively debated.

This is how Flarm works:
1. If you see another Flarm then the other Flarm sees you.
2. If you are in stealth mode then others don't see you but you also
don't see others (but you do still get the alarm when there is
immediate danger of collision)

Given the above it is actually pilot's decision whether he will choose
stealth mode or not. If he doesn't he has the opportunity to see what
others are doing. If he does enable stealth mode then he doesn't see
the other gliders around him.

I would say that 90% of the pilots in competition leaves Flarm in
normal mode. I certainly do. Either way it's not a problem and both is
completely fair for all pilots involved.

Andrej Kolar
--
glider pilots use
http://www.naviter.com

On Oct 28, 2:29*pm, Bob Kuykendall wrote:
On Oct 28, 2:06*pm, John Cochrane
wrote:

To heck with stealth, what about ECM?

You can already "chaff" other competitors - water ballast!

On Oct 28, 6:54*pm, Dave Nadler wrote:
On Oct 28, 6:51*pm, Jerzy wrote:



On Oct 28, 5:53*pm, Peter Scholz
wrote:

Am 28.10.2010 21:53, John Cochrane wrote:

As the US gets ready for the arrival of flarm, a big question on many
US pilot's minds is, what about stealth mode? From an armchair
piloting point of view, it seems that seeing gliders in a several km
range, with *climb rates attached, could be a major competitive
issue. *With this in mind, whether to require stealth mode in
competitions is being actively debated.

I'd like to hear from our European friends with lots of contest
experience, just how this is playing out. Do you find that non-stealth
displays are in fact very useful? Where stealth mode is either not
required or not enforced (WGC), is it becoming de rigeur to have a
secondary display and follow the gaggle with your flarm? Or are the
theoretical advantages overstated, and in the real world flarm
leeching isn't that big an issue; you're better off looking out the
window and seeing who is racked up in a tight turn?

Where stealth mode is required, is it being enforced, and how much of
a pain is that proving to be? Certainly the obvious protocol,
involving cockpit checks for hidden flarms, daily submission of flight
logs, and penalties for absence of such logs, seems rather onerous.

Thanks in advance. We are fortunate to have your experience so we
don't have to rethink this all from scratch!

John Cochrane

In the (regional) competitions that I attended, there was no requirement
of Flarm stealth mode, and almost all pilots had their Flarm configured
in open mode. So everyone was in fact free to hide himself from others
at the cost of not receiving tactical informations himself.

I have no knowledge of a competition here in Germany where the rules
required stealth mode, but there may have been such competitions that
I'm not aware of. Others might want to jump in here.

I have the butterfly display installed in my glider, and I personally
found it quite useful to get the information if a glider circling 3km in
front of me actually had a strong or weak lift, or to get the info that
in 10km distance there was a lift that I could reach straight on,
without having seen the glider that send out the signal.

In competitions this info might be (relatively) less valuable, because
one (at least me) always tends to be in the proximity of a few other
competitors, so normally the Flarm tactical information is only used to
confirm my decision made on 'gut feeling'.

It is much more valuale on normal X/C flights, where I often get
information about thermals 10-15km ahead. This quite often lead to
decisions that I probably wouldn't have made without that information..
--
Peter Scholz
ASW24 JE- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I had Flarm connected to ClearNav during 2010 WGC it worked perfect,
most 18 meter class pilots didn't have stealth mode, climb rate of
gliders *was useless. The most important part was that I could see on
the screen gliders behind me and in my blind spots in addition to
warning about collision. It was eye opener how many gliders I didn't
see till Flarm warning. Flying in thermal with 50+ gliders was no
problem, no excessive warnings, just as needed.
Jerzy XG

Thanks Jerzy - Can you tell us if you had "competition mode" set ?
Best Regards, Dave "YO electric"

Dave,
In Parowan in blue and over Nevada unlandable desert, Flarm would
improve safety( many gliders got damaged).But for all other occasions
this idea would get more pilots buy Power Flarm.
Win, win situation.
GPS made us safer,Flarm can make us safer,pilots reports can make us
safer,infrared thermal vision would make us safer,Power Flarm with
transponder would make us safer..
I think WGC (both in Szeged and in Prievidza) didn't force anybody
to use stealth mode was to increase safety.
I don't have Flarm yet.
Ryszard

For my Italian experience, where 60% of pilots and 100% in competition
are now using Flarm, I would feel not so secure anymore to fly now
without a flarm.
When I meet other gliders without is not nice , but it still happens a
lot.
So obviously it is better to always keep your eyes well open like if
you don't have your flarm on board.
I am very happy to see that Flarm is arriving also in the US, as I
will beging flying in the USA soon as I am moving there.
If, on top of usual flarm functions, you also even add the possibility
to use and to see transponders, it is exactly what we need !
( We also have/use the swiss DSX T-Advisor that is a fully compatible
Flarm produced by a different factory and that is top " swiss "
quality, see www.d-s-x.net : they also do great tracking tools and
more )

Further more, a Flarm connected for example with a See You PDA or
PNA, it is definitelly a great XC and soaring tactic help ! ( Or
Clear Nav or what ever sees flarm and read and reports his information
on the screen). As, on a See You"ed" PDA or PNA screen, you will see
the other XY "flarmed" gliders performances while thermalling, or
while gliding and looking for best netto. ( obviously within the Flarm
range that is not SO big .. )
So you will choose to stay in your own thermal, or on your track, as
you see that the other XY "flarmed" glider is in a weaker or worst
area than your one.
You don't need to communicate with the "flarmed" pilot, as you may not
even know him. Just see : + 3 in you vario or on your netto while he
is + 1.5 .. and stay where you are. So in competition is a good help
( even if during competitions you also have a bunch of other
information to care about ) .
Flarm sensors also help See You, if connected with it, to better
thermal centering and to be definitelly more precise .
Ciao
Maurizio
From Italy

On Oct 28, 9:53*pm, John Cochrane
wrote:
As the US gets ready for the arrival of flarm, a big question on many
US pilot's minds is, what about stealth mode? From an armchair
piloting point of view, it seems that seeing gliders in a several km
range, with *climb rates attached, could be a major competitive
issue. *With this in mind, whether to require stealth mode in
competitions is being actively debated.

I'd like to hear from our European friends with lots of contest
experience, just how this is playing out. Do you find that non-stealth
displays are in fact very useful? Where stealth mode is either not
required or not enforced (WGC), is it becoming de rigeur to have a
secondary display and follow the gaggle with your flarm? Or are the
theoretical advantages overstated, and in the real world flarm
leeching isn't that big an issue; you're better off looking out the
window and seeing who is racked up in a tight turn?

Where stealth mode is required, is it being enforced, and how much of
a pain is that proving to be? Certainly the obvious protocol,
involving cockpit checks for hidden flarms, daily submission of flight
logs, and penalties for absence of such logs, seems rather onerous.

Thanks in advance. We are fortunate to have your experience so we
don't have to rethink this all from scratch!

John Cochrane

Hi John,

I have not flown with FLARM yet... But I did fly in the Sport Class
Nationals in Parowan, UT this year - in which there was a major mid-air
collision and at least one other near-miss. I wanted FLARM (for myself and
everyone else at the contest) so bad I could taste it.

I have also been a Competition Director and Contest Manager at several U.S.
soaring contests and competed in a number of soaring contests.

It seems to me that enabling Stealth mode reduces safety. It reduces the
amount of knowledge you get about traffic around you. Also, it reduces the
amount of information you get about thermals in front of you. To me,
information about thermals in front of me increases my personal safety
factor because it reduces the likelihood that I will need to landout
(especially on a weak day) - which has inherent risks (especially over
rugged terrain).

In the roles of Contest Manager and Competition Director, I always had in
the back of my mind thoughts of liability. I was somewhat concerned that
the decisions of the people running the contest could come back to bite us
all in the event of a tragic accident. With that in mind - (as a Contest
Manager or Competition Director) I would never enforce any rule that reduces
safety. Therefore I am strongly opposed to any rule that requires the use
of Competition Mode or Stealth Mode. Also, doing so would increase the
workload of the contest volunteers (because they would need to chase down
FLARM logs every day) - who are working quite hard already.

I hope that the U.S. Contest Rules Committee finds through this thread that
forcing the use of Stealth or Competition modes is not being done anywhere
in the world. I don't know whether or not that is true - but I suspect it
is from what I have heard from my customers around the world. I believe
that people at FLARM recommend not using Stealth or Competition modes. I
hope that Urs (from FLARM) can comment on his thoughts about those modes.

Best Regards,

Paul Remde

"John Cochrane" wrote in message
...
As the US gets ready for the arrival of flarm, a big question on many
US pilot's minds is, what about stealth mode? From an armchair
piloting point of view, it seems that seeing gliders in a several km
range, with climb rates attached, could be a major competitive
issue. With this in mind, whether to require stealth mode in
competitions is being actively debated.

I'd like to hear from our European friends with lots of contest
experience, just how this is playing out. Do you find that non-stealth
displays are in fact very useful? Where stealth mode is either not
required or not enforced (WGC), is it becoming de rigeur to have a
secondary display and follow the gaggle with your flarm? Or are the
theoretical advantages overstated, and in the real world flarm
leeching isn't that big an issue; you're better off looking out the
window and seeing who is racked up in a tight turn?

Where stealth mode is required, is it being enforced, and how much of
a pain is that proving to be? Certainly the obvious protocol,
involving cockpit checks for hidden flarms, daily submission of flight
logs, and penalties for absence of such logs, seems rather onerous.

Thanks in advance. We are fortunate to have your experience so we
don't have to rethink this all from scratch!

John Cochrane

See www.lk8000.it/about.html for what you can actually do with a flarm
when you want to follow someone..

You can actually "see" the IAS, and thus know its MC, and even if the vario
values are scrambled when you are far away from the "target", still their
averages is valid.
I mean, in 4-5 years we discovered, here in europe, many different
applications for Flarm.

Something that has not been discussed here, is the fact that Flarm does
actually stores in the log the position of gliders seen during the fligth.
This was critical to find a friend lost during a competition in Rieti, last
year.

Everything is nice and smooth in Flarm, except for one thing: they use a
closed proprietary protocol, and thus they operate in monopoly.
However, to be honest their products are excellent and they have a really
good pricing policy.
When you buy a Flarm IGC you also get a logger, at an unbeatable value for
that price.

Also Butterfly avionics are doing wonderful things.

paolo

On Oct 29, 7:57*am, "Paul Remde" wrote:
Therefore I am strongly opposed to any rule that requires the use
of Competition Mode or Stealth Mode. *

And I'm just as strongly opposed to any device that returns us to
endless start gate roulette and reduces sailplane racing to Nascar
style "drafting". But so what? That isn't what John was asking for.

It would be a nearly trivial matter in software to block all
communication with other flarm devices more than (pick a number) two
miles away. No impact at all on safety w.r.t. midair collision
avoidance. Being able to detect climbing gliders and knowing their
climb rate at 5 miles (as PowerFlarm is said to be capable of doing)
is a *huge* potential game changer and John is absolutely right to be
thinking forward on this.

-Evan Ludeman / T8

In the UK Flarm has to be set to stealth mode for use in
competitions. This was introduced this year. Organisers may
make spot checks for compliance, but I'm not aware of any checks
being made. It didn't seem to cause any issues, apart from the
minor hassle of making the file change on the sd card.

At 11:57 29 October 2010, Paul Remde wrote:

I hope that the U.S. Contest Rules Committee finds through this
thread
that
forcing the use of Stealth or Competition modes is not being done
anywhere

in the world. I don't know whether or not that is true - but I
suspect it

is from what I have heard from my customers around the world.

On Thu, 28 Oct 2010 12:53:32 -0700 (PDT), John Cochrane
wrote:

As the US gets ready for the arrival of flarm, a big question on many
US pilot's minds is, what about stealth mode?

This year I flew competitions in Italy, Spain and Switzerland. There
was never any requirement to select any particular Flarm setting. Most
of the pilots had in standard mode.
My impression is that this is the way to go.

Where "team flying" is accepted, the pilots regularly use Flarm
indications to be aware of the position of the partner, reducing radio
chat.

Vertical speeds as indicated for the surrounding gliders is mostly
unreliable, but you can learn to make good use of it, somehow.



Some considerations:

Sometimes my Flarm could spot gilders inside clouds (maybe only a few
hundred feet above cloudbase, not permitted by the rules. In facts,
Flarm records might help identify the "bad guys.."

A minority of pilots may possibly develop habits that I consider
wrong: turning Flarm off (or disabling the gps antenna or whatever) to
hide their position upon finding the last thermal. Flying through
clouds as Flarm doesn't indicate any traffic inside.
I believe this is a side-effect that will desappear, given enough time
and experience.

It has taken more than 5 years for Flarm to be generally well accepted
by pilots and competition pilots. A minority are still negating the
usefulness of this device, or are against requiring Flarm as mandatory
equipment (for competition).

Am 29.10.2010 17:53, cernauta wrote:
...
Vertical speeds as indicated for the surrounding gliders is mostly
unreliable, but you can learn to make good use of it, somehow.


I usually look more at the change in relative vertical distance to a
specific target to determine if's worth to leave my thermal in favour of
somebody elses. This can be decided in 30-60 seconds.