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#21
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Flarm and stealth
This is very interesting. We started with "is there really a tactical
advantage in seeing other gliders on flarm." Some US pilots are adamantly opposed to allowing this to happen, and view it as a big negative to the contest soaring experience. I seem to be hearing "yes, and we like it." John Cochrane |
#22
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Flarm and stealth
On Oct 29, 1:02*pm, John Cochrane
wrote: This is very interesting. We started with "is there really a tactical advantage in seeing other gliders on flarm." Some US pilots are adamantly opposed to allowing this to happen, and view it as a big negative to the contest soaring experience. I seem to be hearing "yes, and we like it." John Cochrane Contest soaring is a game. The game has changed a lot since |
#23
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Flarm and stealth
Remde has argued that there would be a safety advantage in allowing
normal mode so that thermals in the vicinity could be located and assessed. I think it sounds like fun to be able to do that but I am skeptical about any net safety advantage. The problem that I see is that normal mode will dictate a significant amount of face down time. This would be especially true during the prestart gaggle time when it would be critical to see when other pilots are leaving on course and whether they are hitting decent lift. It is exactly the congested prestart period which is by far the most dangerous part of racing now even without that added distraction. Of course, Flarm itself helps to reduce the hazard but I doubt that setting ourselves up for maybe 10% or 20% face down time during the prestart interval is a really smart idea. Perhaps we can ask for a software feature that automatically forces competition mode until the glider has traveled say 15 miles from the launch point. |
#24
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Flarm and stealth
On Oct 29, 1:02*pm, John Cochrane
wrote: This is very interesting. We started with "is there really a tactical advantage in seeing other gliders on flarm." Some US pilots are adamantly opposed to allowing this to happen, and view it as a big negative to the contest soaring experience. I seem to be hearing "yes, and we like it." John Cochrane Contest soaring is a game... one that has changed an awful lot since I started out in the map/camera/eyeball/high speed gate days. I wasn't real thrilled about the switch to GPS and I feel some of the same feelings towards the ability of flarm to tell us about gliders beyond visual range. One of the things I like about this sport is that it's difficult enough to be daunting. It was still more so pre-GPS, and I liked that even better. Probably, I'll get worn down on Flarm the same way I got worn down on GPS: it just won't be practical to police this. But when our moving map displays start plotting thermal locations, strengths and working bands before we even arrive... we may be racing... and the speeds will be impressive... but man, it's all a bit of a con at that point. My $0.02. Bet Romeo agrees with me, anyway :-). Geeze. I'm more of a curmudgeon than most of the "Seniors". -Evan Ludeman / T8 |
#25
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Flarm and stealth
Geeze. *I'm more of a curmudgeon than most of the "Seniors".
-Evan Ludeman / T8 You were born a curmudgeon. :-) Todd Smith / 3S |
#26
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Flarm and stealth
On Oct 29, 3:27*pm, T8 wrote:
On Oct 29, 1:02*pm, John Cochrane wrote: This is very interesting. We started with "is there really a tactical advantage in seeing other gliders on flarm." Some US pilots are adamantly opposed to allowing this to happen, and view it as a big negative to the contest soaring experience. I seem to be hearing "yes, and we like it." John Cochrane Contest soaring is a game... one that has changed an awful lot since I started out in the map/camera/eyeball/high speed gate days. *I wasn't real thrilled about the switch to GPS and I feel some of the same feelings towards the ability of flarm to tell us about gliders beyond visual range. *One of the things I like about this sport is that it's difficult enough to be daunting. *It was still more so pre-GPS, and I liked that even better. Probably, I'll get worn down on Flarm the same way I got worn down on GPS: it just won't be practical to police this. But when our moving map displays start plotting thermal locations, strengths and working bands before we even arrive... *we may be racing... and the speeds will be impressive... but man, it's all a bit of a con at that point. *My $0.02. *Bet Romeo agrees with me, anyway :-). Geeze. *I'm more of a curmudgeon than most of the "Seniors". -Evan Ludeman / T8 Evan, So You are one of the guys who finds thermal under the visible cloud and pray to your god to make it disappear, so nobody can see it and if somebody goes same track crashes and burns. Ryszard |
#27
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Flarm and stealth
On Oct 29, 12:02*pm, John Cochrane
wrote: This is very interesting. We started with "is there really a tactical advantage in seeing other gliders on flarm." Some US pilots are adamantly opposed to allowing this to happen, and view it as a big negative to the contest soaring experience. I seem to be hearing "yes, and we like it." John Cochrane Any device that allows you to “see” another competitor that you could not otherwise acquire with your eyeball gives a tactical advantage, period. Keep in mind we started down this FLARM road for one purpose, to avoid another Chris O’Callaghan type tragedy. It bothers me that some are using the safety soapbox to promote the use of FLARM for something other than collision avoidance with regards to US competition soaring. Where does that line of reasoning stop? Perhaps we should only race over landable terrain or everyone should be required to fly a motorglider. Wouldn’t that be safer? If not knowing where the next lift is scares you, buy a motorglider. If racing scares you, don’t race. If the contest rules concern you, don’t organize, host, manage or CD a US contest. PowerFlarm in full up mode will be Leacher’s wet dream. I define a good leach as someone who has a capable aircraft, average to above average airmanship skills but lacks the confidence to make his own decisions. Why make a racing decision when you can follow the lead pack on Flarm? That’s great for weekend flying around the field, but it has no place in racing. If I am not a collision threat to you, or you to me, than you have no need or right to know my location and rate of climb. The day the rules REQUIRE me to share my location and climb rate with fellow competitors will be the day I stop racing. For the record I have a PowerFlarm on order. I’m buying it for one purpose/reason. I have two young children and I don’t want to be involved in a fatal midair. But I still want to Race. Bill Ruehle WR |
#28
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Flarm and stealth
On Oct 29, 11:40*pm, RW wrote:
On Oct 29, 3:27*pm, T8 wrote: Geeze. *I'm more of a curmudgeon than most of the "Seniors". -Evan Ludeman / T8 Evan, So You are one of the guys who finds thermal under the visible cloud and pray to your god to make it disappear, so nobody can see it and if somebody goes same track crashes and burns. Ryszard Gosh no. But re-reading your earlier post... are you seriously trying to sell leeching technology as a safety enhancement? No thanks! I'm with Bill Ruehle 100%. -Evan Ludeman / T8 |
#29
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Flarm and stealth
Hi Bill,
Well said and with many good points. I respect your opinion and I'm certain many U.S. soaring contest pilots agree with you. However, I suspect that many of those pilots will "change their tune" after flying with FLARM and over time. I'm sure European pilots had the same feelings 5 years ago, yet now many of them are used to FLARM and like the thermal strength data - hence why most contests don't require Stealth or Competition modes be turned on. Years ago a wise soaring instructor (Bob Wander - if I remember correctly) said - "There wouldn't be any fun or challenge to soaring cross country if all the thermals were painted pink." At the time I agreed with him. But after listening the Dick Johnson talk about how cool it would be to see all thermals all around you, I started to believe that I would love to have more thermal strength information available. I now believe that it would increase my "fun" to be able to see "thermals" ahead of me on a cross-country task. But it does change the game - a lot! And it will take a while for many to come around to that way of thinking. And many never will. All I ask is that you keep an open mind - at least until after you have flown with FLARM in an environment with many other gliders. Once you get used to flying with it from your local gliderport you may really miss the thermal climb rate information when you go to a contest. I certainly may be wrong. I can't see the future. But this is my opinion. Best Regards, Paul Remde Cumulus Soaring, Inc. "WR" wrote in message ... On Oct 29, 12:02 pm, John Cochrane wrote: This is very interesting. We started with "is there really a tactical advantage in seeing other gliders on flarm." Some US pilots are adamantly opposed to allowing this to happen, and view it as a big negative to the contest soaring experience. I seem to be hearing "yes, and we like it." John Cochrane Any device that allows you to “see” another competitor that you could not otherwise acquire with your eyeball gives a tactical advantage, period. Keep in mind we started down this FLARM road for one purpose, to avoid another Chris O’Callaghan type tragedy. It bothers me that some are using the safety soapbox to promote the use of FLARM for something other than collision avoidance with regards to US competition soaring. Where does that line of reasoning stop? Perhaps we should only race over landable terrain or everyone should be required to fly a motorglider. Wouldn’t that be safer? If not knowing where the next lift is scares you, buy a motorglider. If racing scares you, don’t race. If the contest rules concern you, don’t organize, host, manage or CD a US contest. PowerFlarm in full up mode will be Leacher’s wet dream. I define a good leach as someone who has a capable aircraft, average to above average airmanship skills but lacks the confidence to make his own decisions. Why make a racing decision when you can follow the lead pack on Flarm? That’s great for weekend flying around the field, but it has no place in racing. If I am not a collision threat to you, or you to me, than you have no need or right to know my location and rate of climb. The day the rules REQUIRE me to share my location and climb rate with fellow competitors will be the day I stop racing. For the record I have a PowerFlarm on order. I’m buying it for one purpose/reason. I have two young children and I don’t want to be involved in a fatal midair. But I still want to Race. Bill Ruehle WR |
#30
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Flarm and stealth
On Oct 30, 8:26*am, T8 wrote:
On Oct 29, 11:40*pm, RW wrote: On Oct 29, 3:27*pm, T8 wrote: Geeze. *I'm more of a curmudgeon than most of the "Seniors". -Evan Ludeman / T8 Evan, So You are one of the guys who finds thermal under the visible cloud and pray to your god to make it disappear, so nobody can see it and if somebody goes same track crashes and burns. Ryszard Gosh no. *But re-reading your earlier post... are you seriously trying to sell leeching technology as a safety enhancement? *No thanks! I'm with Bill Ruehle 100%. -Evan Ludeman / T8 UH Agrees 100% |
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