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Flarm and stealth



 
 
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  #21  
Old October 29th 10, 06:02 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
John Cochrane[_2_]
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Posts: 237
Default Flarm and stealth

This is very interesting. We started with "is there really a tactical
advantage in seeing other gliders on flarm." Some US pilots are
adamantly opposed to allowing this to happen, and view it as a big
negative to the contest soaring experience. I seem to be hearing "yes,
and we like it."

John Cochrane
  #22  
Old October 29th 10, 06:42 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
T8
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Posts: 429
Default Flarm and stealth

On Oct 29, 1:02*pm, John Cochrane
wrote:
This is very interesting. We started with "is there really a tactical
advantage in seeing other gliders on flarm." Some US pilots are
adamantly opposed to allowing this to happen, and view it as a big
negative to the contest soaring experience. I seem to be hearing "yes,
and we like it."

John Cochrane


Contest soaring is a game.

The game has changed a lot since
  #23  
Old October 29th 10, 07:35 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Steve Koerner
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Posts: 430
Default Flarm and stealth

Remde has argued that there would be a safety advantage in allowing
normal mode so that thermals in the vicinity could be located and
assessed. I think it sounds like fun to be able to do that but I am
skeptical about any net safety advantage. The problem that I see is
that normal mode will dictate a significant amount of face down
time. This would be especially true during the prestart gaggle time
when it would be critical to see when other pilots are leaving on
course and whether they are hitting decent lift. It is exactly the
congested prestart period which is by far the most dangerous part of
racing now even without that added distraction. Of course, Flarm
itself helps to reduce the hazard but I doubt that setting ourselves
up for maybe 10% or 20% face down time during the prestart interval is
a really smart idea.

Perhaps we can ask for a software feature that automatically forces
competition mode until the glider has traveled say 15 miles from the
launch point.
  #24  
Old October 29th 10, 08:27 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
T8
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 429
Default Flarm and stealth

On Oct 29, 1:02*pm, John Cochrane
wrote:
This is very interesting. We started with "is there really a tactical
advantage in seeing other gliders on flarm." Some US pilots are
adamantly opposed to allowing this to happen, and view it as a big
negative to the contest soaring experience. I seem to be hearing "yes,
and we like it."

John Cochrane


Contest soaring is a game... one that has changed an awful lot since I
started out in the map/camera/eyeball/high speed gate days. I wasn't
real thrilled about the switch to GPS and I feel some of the same
feelings towards the ability of flarm to tell us about gliders beyond
visual range. One of the things I like about this sport is that it's
difficult enough to be daunting. It was still more so pre-GPS, and I
liked that even better.

Probably, I'll get worn down on Flarm the same way I got worn down on
GPS: it just won't be practical to police this.

But when our moving map displays start plotting thermal locations,
strengths and working bands before we even arrive... we may be
racing... and the speeds will be impressive... but man, it's all a bit
of a con at that point. My $0.02. Bet Romeo agrees with me,
anyway :-).

Geeze. I'm more of a curmudgeon than most of the "Seniors".

-Evan Ludeman / T8
  #25  
Old October 29th 10, 08:56 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
toad
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Posts: 229
Default Flarm and stealth

Geeze. *I'm more of a curmudgeon than most of the "Seniors".

-Evan Ludeman / T8


You were born a curmudgeon. :-)

Todd Smith / 3S
  #26  
Old October 30th 10, 04:40 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
RW[_2_]
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Posts: 70
Default Flarm and stealth

On Oct 29, 3:27*pm, T8 wrote:
On Oct 29, 1:02*pm, John Cochrane
wrote:

This is very interesting. We started with "is there really a tactical
advantage in seeing other gliders on flarm." Some US pilots are
adamantly opposed to allowing this to happen, and view it as a big
negative to the contest soaring experience. I seem to be hearing "yes,
and we like it."


John Cochrane


Contest soaring is a game... one that has changed an awful lot since I
started out in the map/camera/eyeball/high speed gate days. *I wasn't
real thrilled about the switch to GPS and I feel some of the same
feelings towards the ability of flarm to tell us about gliders beyond
visual range. *One of the things I like about this sport is that it's
difficult enough to be daunting. *It was still more so pre-GPS, and I
liked that even better.

Probably, I'll get worn down on Flarm the same way I got worn down on
GPS: it just won't be practical to police this.

But when our moving map displays start plotting thermal locations,
strengths and working bands before we even arrive... *we may be
racing... and the speeds will be impressive... but man, it's all a bit
of a con at that point. *My $0.02. *Bet Romeo agrees with me,
anyway :-).

Geeze. *I'm more of a curmudgeon than most of the "Seniors".

-Evan Ludeman / T8


Evan,
So You are one of the guys who finds thermal under the visible cloud
and pray to your god to make it disappear, so nobody can see it and if
somebody goes same track crashes and burns.
Ryszard
  #27  
Old October 30th 10, 07:04 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
WR
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 8
Default Flarm and stealth

On Oct 29, 12:02*pm, John Cochrane
wrote:
This is very interesting. We started with "is there really a tactical
advantage in seeing other gliders on flarm." Some US pilots are
adamantly opposed to allowing this to happen, and view it as a big
negative to the contest soaring experience. I seem to be hearing "yes,
and we like it."

John Cochrane


Any device that allows you to “see” another competitor that you could
not otherwise acquire with your eyeball gives a tactical advantage,
period.
Keep in mind we started down this FLARM road for one purpose, to
avoid another Chris O’Callaghan type tragedy.

It bothers me that some are using the safety soapbox to promote the
use of FLARM for something other than collision avoidance with
regards
to US competition soaring. Where does that line of reasoning stop?
Perhaps we should only race over landable terrain or everyone should
be required to fly a motorglider. Wouldn’t that be safer? If not
knowing
where the next lift is scares you, buy a motorglider.
If racing scares you, don’t race. If the contest rules concern you,
don’t
organize, host, manage or CD a US contest.

PowerFlarm in full up mode will be Leacher’s wet dream. I define a
good
leach as someone who has a capable aircraft, average to above average
airmanship skills but lacks the confidence to make his own
decisions.
Why make a racing decision when you can follow the lead pack on
Flarm?
That’s great for weekend flying around the field, but it has no place
in racing.

If I am not a collision threat to you, or you to me, than you have no
need or
right to know my location and rate of climb. The day the rules
REQUIRE me
to share my location and climb rate with fellow competitors will be
the day
I stop racing.

For the record I have a PowerFlarm on order. I’m buying it for one
purpose/reason.
I have two young children and I don’t want to be involved in a fatal
midair.
But I still want to Race.

Bill Ruehle WR
  #28  
Old October 30th 10, 01:26 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
T8
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 429
Default Flarm and stealth

On Oct 29, 11:40*pm, RW wrote:
On Oct 29, 3:27*pm, T8 wrote:


Geeze. *I'm more of a curmudgeon than most of the "Seniors".


-Evan Ludeman / T8


Evan,
So You are one of the guys who finds thermal under the visible cloud
and pray to your god to make it disappear, so nobody can see it and if
somebody goes same track crashes and burns.
Ryszard


Gosh no. But re-reading your earlier post... are you seriously trying
to sell leeching technology as a safety enhancement? No thanks!

I'm with Bill Ruehle 100%.

-Evan Ludeman / T8
  #29  
Old October 30th 10, 01:41 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Paul Remde
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Posts: 1,691
Default Flarm and stealth

Hi Bill,

Well said and with many good points. I respect your opinion and I'm certain
many U.S. soaring contest pilots agree with you.

However, I suspect that many of those pilots will "change their tune" after
flying with FLARM and over time. I'm sure European pilots had the same
feelings 5 years ago, yet now many of them are used to FLARM and like the
thermal strength data - hence why most contests don't require Stealth or
Competition modes be turned on.

Years ago a wise soaring instructor (Bob Wander - if I remember correctly)
said - "There wouldn't be any fun or challenge to soaring cross country if
all the thermals were painted pink." At the time I agreed with him. But
after listening the Dick Johnson talk about how cool it would be to see all
thermals all around you, I started to believe that I would love to have more
thermal strength information available. I now believe that it would
increase my "fun" to be able to see "thermals" ahead of me on a
cross-country task. But it does change the game - a lot! And it will take
a while for many to come around to that way of thinking. And many never
will.

All I ask is that you keep an open mind - at least until after you have
flown with FLARM in an environment with many other gliders. Once you get
used to flying with it from your local gliderport you may really miss the
thermal climb rate information when you go to a contest.

I certainly may be wrong. I can't see the future. But this is my opinion.

Best Regards,

Paul Remde
Cumulus Soaring, Inc.

"WR" wrote in message
...
On Oct 29, 12:02 pm, John Cochrane
wrote:
This is very interesting. We started with "is there really a tactical
advantage in seeing other gliders on flarm." Some US pilots are
adamantly opposed to allowing this to happen, and view it as a big
negative to the contest soaring experience. I seem to be hearing "yes,
and we like it."

John Cochrane


Any device that allows you to “see” another competitor that you could
not otherwise acquire with your eyeball gives a tactical advantage,
period.
Keep in mind we started down this FLARM road for one purpose, to
avoid another Chris O’Callaghan type tragedy.

It bothers me that some are using the safety soapbox to promote the
use of FLARM for something other than collision avoidance with
regards
to US competition soaring. Where does that line of reasoning stop?
Perhaps we should only race over landable terrain or everyone should
be required to fly a motorglider. Wouldn’t that be safer? If not
knowing
where the next lift is scares you, buy a motorglider.
If racing scares you, don’t race. If the contest rules concern you,
don’t
organize, host, manage or CD a US contest.

PowerFlarm in full up mode will be Leacher’s wet dream. I define a
good
leach as someone who has a capable aircraft, average to above average
airmanship skills but lacks the confidence to make his own
decisions.
Why make a racing decision when you can follow the lead pack on
Flarm?
That’s great for weekend flying around the field, but it has no place
in racing.

If I am not a collision threat to you, or you to me, than you have no
need or
right to know my location and rate of climb. The day the rules
REQUIRE me
to share my location and climb rate with fellow competitors will be
the day
I stop racing.

For the record I have a PowerFlarm on order. I’m buying it for one
purpose/reason.
I have two young children and I don’t want to be involved in a fatal
midair.
But I still want to Race.

Bill Ruehle WR

  #30  
Old October 30th 10, 01:46 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,124
Default Flarm and stealth

On Oct 30, 8:26*am, T8 wrote:
On Oct 29, 11:40*pm, RW wrote:

On Oct 29, 3:27*pm, T8 wrote:
Geeze. *I'm more of a curmudgeon than most of the "Seniors".


-Evan Ludeman / T8


Evan,
So You are one of the guys who finds thermal under the visible cloud
and pray to your god to make it disappear, so nobody can see it and if
somebody goes same track crashes and burns.
Ryszard


Gosh no. *But re-reading your earlier post... are you seriously trying
to sell leeching technology as a safety enhancement? *No thanks!

I'm with Bill Ruehle 100%.

-Evan Ludeman / T8


UH Agrees 100%
 




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