AutoGas question.. Jay Honeck, Jim Weir.. others..

Great question!
I decided I'd go see whether my state offered this or not. After emailing
the IL Dept of Rev through their website I got a "not to my knowledge"
answer.
That wasn't good enough. I gave them a call and got the good news!
Illinois offers the refund!
For all of you IL pilots, here's the link to the refund form:
http://www.revenue.state.il.us/taxfo...ft/Rmft11a.pdf

I just started reading this newsgroup 3 days ago, just bought my first plane
a week ago, and already I've gotten great info from all who post.
Thanks a ton everybody!


"Dave S" wrote in message
nk.net...
The folks here who are running autogas.. I have a question for you.

Preface: When I was tasked by my volunteer fire department 10 years ago to
stamp out fuel credit card abuse and fraud, I secured the services of a
certain brand's fleet card system. The sales vendor who set up our account
told me that any of our OFF ROAD engines were eligible to be billed free
of the state and federal highway fuel taxes. In the fire dept's case this
was for generators and free standing pumps.. but our "off road" gasoline
useage was so light that it wasnt even worth the hassle.

So.. Since aircraft (with the exception of Mr Moller's wannabe Skycar and
a few others) are not considered licensed motor vehicles for the purpose
of the fuel taxes, do you guys make an effort to obtain fuel with a
special account that gives credit for these taxes? In Texas the amount is
38.5 cents/gal and over a year or so that can add up to real money
(especially in light of the discounted price of autogas compared to 100LL)

I'm presuming some method of accounting would be needed in the event of an
audit.. but just wanted to see if 1) anyone else was aware of this 2) does
it still exist and 3) does anyone do it?

I figured Jay Honeck would be a perfect example of someone who could do
this, since he has his Mighty Grape (TM) fuel shuttlemobile. If the Texas
rates apply I would guess this could drop Atlas's operating costs by $4-$6
per hour (40 cents x 10-15 GPH). Fillup of the Grape's 60 gal tank would
be about $23-$24 cheaper. Every little bit helps.

I was planning on contacting Fuelman/Rushce about their fuelcard setup but
havent gotten to it just yet (many months out from flying the Velocity
with auto conversion)...

So.. anyone have input, feedback, comment?
Dave

Y'all

Just be careful that your plane behaves well with autogas and know its
limitations. We've had auto conversion Soobs with full return loop EFI's
get vapor lock being sold "Winter" blend auto gas in the summer months.
A vapor pressure tester verified this post mortem (Of the airplane, not
the pilot.) In at least two cases we know of the airplane was wrecked
due to vapor lock from using auto gas and that definitely didn't save
them any money. And if you have capacitance probes that were calibrated
for AV-Gas it doesn't show the correct amount of fuel.

Just keep yer eyes open and fly safe.

Thanks

Bart
--
Bart D. Hull

Tempe, Arizona

Check http://www.inficad.com/~bdhull/engine.html
for my Subaru Engine Conversion
Check http://www.inficad.com/~bdhull/fuselage.html
for Tango II I'm building.

Remove -nospam to reply via email.

brizock wrote:
Great question!
I decided I'd go see whether my state offered this or not. After emailing
the IL Dept of Rev through their website I got a "not to my knowledge"
answer.
That wasn't good enough. I gave them a call and got the good news!
Illinois offers the refund!
For all of you IL pilots, here's the link to the refund form:
http://www.revenue.state.il.us/taxfo...ft/Rmft11a.pdf

I just started reading this newsgroup 3 days ago, just bought my first plane
a week ago, and already I've gotten great info from all who post.
Thanks a ton everybody!


"Dave S" wrote in message
nk.net...

The folks here who are running autogas.. I have a question for you.

Preface: When I was tasked by my volunteer fire department 10 years ago to
stamp out fuel credit card abuse and fraud, I secured the services of a
certain brand's fleet card system. The sales vendor who set up our account
told me that any of our OFF ROAD engines were eligible to be billed free
of the state and federal highway fuel taxes. In the fire dept's case this
was for generators and free standing pumps.. but our "off road" gasoline
useage was so light that it wasnt even worth the hassle.

So.. Since aircraft (with the exception of Mr Moller's wannabe Skycar and
a few others) are not considered licensed motor vehicles for the purpose
of the fuel taxes, do you guys make an effort to obtain fuel with a
special account that gives credit for these taxes? In Texas the amount is
38.5 cents/gal and over a year or so that can add up to real money
(especially in light of the discounted price of autogas compared to 100LL)

I'm presuming some method of accounting would be needed in the event of an
audit.. but just wanted to see if 1) anyone else was aware of this 2) does
it still exist and 3) does anyone do it?

I figured Jay Honeck would be a perfect example of someone who could do
this, since he has his Mighty Grape (TM) fuel shuttlemobile. If the Texas
rates apply I would guess this could drop Atlas's operating costs by $4-$6
per hour (40 cents x 10-15 GPH). Fillup of the Grape's 60 gal tank would
be about $23-$24 cheaper. Every little bit helps.

I was planning on contacting Fuelman/Rushce about their fuelcard setup but
havent gotten to it just yet (many months out from flying the Velocity
with auto conversion)...

So.. anyone have input, feedback, comment?
Dave

Bart D. Hull wrote:
: Just be careful that your plane behaves well with autogas and know its
: limitations. We've had auto conversion Soobs with full return loop EFI's
: get vapor lock being sold "Winter" blend auto gas in the summer months.
: A vapor pressure tester verified this post mortem (Of the airplane, not
: the pilot.) In at least two cases we know of the airplane was wrecked
: due to vapor lock from using auto gas and that definitely didn't save
: them any money. And if you have capacitance probes that were calibrated
: for AV-Gas it doesn't show the correct amount of fuel.

Yes... the usual caveats apply. I bought one of the "vapor pressure testers"
from Peterson when I got the autogas STC for my Cherokee. It's basically a syringe
with a vacuum gauge you can screw onto the end. Pull in 2cc's of fuel, screw on the
gauge, and pull it back to 10cc's on the plunger. The fuel will boil and equilibrate
on a vacuum reading.

It doesn't read RVP directly (many factors affect it like temperature, local
pressure, etc), but it will definately be good for comparison. I test mine once in
awhile (especially in the spring when it's warm and the autogas stations might have a
winter blend). I almost always see 1" difference between 100LL and 93 AKI here (2100'
MSL). "Safe" on the gauge is 6inHG. 100LL will show 8 winter, 7 summer. Cargas will
show 7 winter, 6 summer... on the border of "safe."

-Cory

************************************************** ***********************
* Cory Papenfuss *
* Electrical Engineering candidate Ph.D. graduate student *
* Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University *
************************************************** ***********************

That doesn't happen to be true.

Jim




"Bart D. Hull"
shared these priceless pearls of wisdom:

And if you have capacitance probes that were calibrated
-for AV-Gas it doesn't show the correct amount of fuel.


Jim Weir (A&P/IA, CFI, & other good alphabet soup)
VP Eng RST Pres. Cyberchapter EAA Tech. Counselor
http://www.rst-engr.com

What if your autogas has alcohol or MTBE? Have you tried this
with probes on your plane?

The probes I have acquired have a slip of paper with them that
mentions how to calibrate the gauge to the probes and warns about
different fuel mixes showing different results.

--
Bart D. Hull

Tempe, Arizona

Check http://www.inficad.com/~bdhull/engine.html
for my Subaru Engine Conversion
Check http://www.inficad.com/~bdhull/fuselage.html
for Tango II I'm building.

Remove -nospam to reply via email.

Jim Weir wrote:
That doesn't happen to be true.

Jim




"Bart D. Hull"
shared these priceless pearls of wisdom:

And if you have capacitance probes that were calibrated
-for AV-Gas it doesn't show the correct amount of fuel.


Jim Weir (A&P/IA, CFI, & other good alphabet soup)
VP Eng RST Pres. Cyberchapter EAA Tech. Counselor
http://www.rst-engr.com

Well, of COURSE, you stupid idiot. If the autogas has alcohol in it, it will
read different. But you KNEW that didn't you, and you knew that gasahol isn't
approved for aircraft engines.

Just for you to research. What is the difference in dielectric constant (you do
know what that means, don't you) from pure gasoline to MTBE?

Jim




"Bart D. Hull"
shared these priceless pearls of wisdom:

-What if your autogas has alcohol or MTBE? Have you tried this
-with probes on your plane?
-
-The probes I have acquired have a slip of paper with them that
-mentions how to calibrate the gauge to the probes and warns about
-different fuel mixes showing different results.


Jim Weir (A&P/IA, CFI, & other good alphabet soup)
VP Eng RST Pres. Cyberchapter EAA Tech. Counselor
http://www.rst-engr.com

"Jim Weir" wrote in message
...
Well, of COURSE, you stupid idiot.

I am going to have to call you down for being redundant. Redundancy is OK
for airplanes but not English.

Dave S wrote in message ink.net...
The folks here who are running autogas.. I have a question for you.

Are there many places where autogas is still legal? I live near
Sacramento and our auto gas contains additives that the FAA prohibits
under all autogas STCs.

-Robert

Robert M. Gary wrote:
: Are there many places where autogas is still legal? I live near
: Sacramento and our auto gas contains additives that the FAA prohibits
: under all autogas STCs.

: -Robert

There are some places, but they seem to be getting fewer and farther between.
Soon it'll probably have to be wholesale and get it direct.

I *STILL* don't know how Jay Honeck can find pure gasoline smack dab in the
middle of the corn belt. (I grew up in Dubuque)...

-Cory
--

************************************************** ***********************
* Cory Papenfuss *
* Electrical Engineering candidate Ph.D. graduate student *
* Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University *
************************************************** ***********************

I *STILL* don't know how Jay Honeck can find pure gasoline smack dab in
the
middle of the corn belt. (I grew up in Dubuque)...

Strangely enough, it's everywhere.

There isn't a single gas station in our area that DOESN'T sell regular
unleaded gas alongside the ethanol and "super" unleaded.

Thanks goodness. I'd be flying 1/3 less, were it not for the mogas savings.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"