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#31
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Discus verus Discus 2, LS8, ASW 28
Why has nobody included in any comparisons the Diana 2, Lak 17 and 19,
SZD-56-2, and the 304CZ ... Because the discussion was originally about a few specific 15M standard class ships, and has mostly stayed on topic. A broader comparison of gliders would need its own news group! ~ted/2NO (former 304CZ owner) |
#32
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Discus verus Discus 2, LS8, ASW 28
Robert Danewid wrote:
Perhaps pilot skill was involved in the results (especially for SS)?? Just my 3c worth.... Robert Bruce Greef wrote: Andy wrote: Ben Flewett wrote: ASW28 - Contrary to all the hype the ASW28 definitely does not perform as well as either the D2 or the LS8 (including high speed range). In fact, I would rate it's performance as surprisingly poor in comparison to the D2 and LS8. I wonder what data, or observations, you used to arrive at that conclusion. Andy Having won the Omarama Grand Prix, with a current world ranking of #86 - highest IGC ranking of #7 I believe. Contested World and European contests in Discus 2s I would apportion a certain amount of weight to Ben's observations. A quote from Pete Harvey - UK Racing pilot - on losing day 2 at http://www.gp06.com/race_diary/diary_day2.htm “It’s so frustrating to be beaten at the last moment by the glider type, not pilot skill.” The Discus overtakes the LS8 on final glide." From the results "SS" - ASW28 never got close. just my 2c worth... For Referrence - a simple google search would get you to a ~2700 hits for Ben Flewett. http://www.glidingteam.co.uk/competi...cle.php?id=183 http://www.fai.org/gliding/ben_flewett http://www.gliding.co.nz/ Agreed - on the SS part I can't comment because I do not know Ms Pederson's skill level. This was not a bunch of beginners (like me) though - so I am sure she is a very competent contest pilot to have made the selection process... So - skill probably dominates, and conversely the best pilots tend to choose the best equipment for the conditions. If it is about speed, the Discus appears to have a miniscule edge. When seconds count this is important. Personally - For most people it is more important how you and the machine work. |
#33
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Discus verus Discus 2, LS8, ASW 28
At 20:55 26 October 2006, Ruud wrote:
'BTW, there are only few ASW28 for sale, while you can fill oceans with second hand LS8 and D2.' Could have something to do with how many have been produced! Roughly twice as many Discus 2's as ASW28's , and probably 3 times as many LS8's. (all models). Seem to be quite a few 28's for sale on segelflug.de at the moment! Face it the 28 has just not had the contest success of the Discus 2 or LS8 - even Waibel admitted it's intial sales were a disappointment (but improved by the addition of the 28-18 model). |
#34
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Discus verus Discus 2, LS8, ASW 28
At 20:55 26 October 2006, Ruud wrote:
'BTW, there are only few ASW28 for sale, while you can fill oceans with second hand LS8 and D2.' Could have something to do with how many have been produced! Roughly twice as many Discus 2's as ASW28's , and probably 3 times as many LS8's. (all models). Seem to be quite a few 28's for sale on segelflug.de at the moment! Face it the 28 has just not had the contest success of the Discus 2 or LS8 - even Waibel admitted it's intial sales were a disappointment (but improved by the addition of the 28-18 model). |
#35
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Discus verus Discus 2, LS8, ASW 28
I spoke to a former World Champion for his observations prior to buying
my LS8. His comment was that forgiving handling, comfort, and good performance over a wide range of conditions was the primary consideration for serious competition. A national or World competition is a pretty draining experience, and I'm partial to LS for the great and forgiving handling. I do tend to agree that it gives up a little bit to a well flown D2A on the high speed end during dolphin flight or "whifferdilling" (though curiously not on the ridge, where I can run right with them at 100kts or more; maybe a function of my "superior" wingloading over the guys who can typically squeeze into an A model :-). But, since most contests are won and lost on the weak days, I have to say that I would favor the ship that does best there. I will have a chance to fly a D2B model soon, and it'll be interesting to see how that feels compared to my trusty steed. Erik Mann LS8-18 (P3) Owain Walters wrote: I own a Discus 2a but I am yet to learn how to fly it properly (I think Ben says you need 200 hrs to be kind as he knows I have about 100 hrs and I fly it terribly!). I fly in the UK and have on occasion (!) flown in some pretty weak conditions. The ASW28 is the only new glider that I have not struggled to out climb. I feel the LS8 is the best weak weather Std Class glider. I think that the D2a is noticeably better than any other Std class glider at high speed. Owain PS. Why are people so interested with looking at their tail? PPS. You will notice I say "think" and "feel" a lot. I have not measured anything but my views are from my experience and anecdotal evidence. |
#36
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Discus verus Discus 2, LS8, ASW 28
There are about 120 000 glider pilots in the world.
At the last WGC in Sweden (where I was the comp director) there were 116 pilots from 25 nations competing. Let us assume that there are 500 serious competition on an average in these 25 countries. That gives us a total of 12 500 pilots who are serious comp pilots or about 10% of the whole gliding community - and I amsure this is an overestimation. Now I ask my self why the other 90% would prefer a glider with a little preformance advantage in which you are not even able to wear your shoes to fit in. I think what you really should look for is not only performance, but flight characteristic, comfort, pilot safety, craftmanship etc etc. On the other hand, we glider pilots have always been a liitle bit crazy. But presonally I will never take of my shoes just to fit in a glider! Sorry Ben. Robert Owain Walters wrote: If you fly your glider in weak lift conditions most of the time, the picture will be a complete different one. I own a Discus 2a but I am yet to learn how to fly it properly (I think Ben says you need 200 hrs to be kind as he knows I have about 100 hrs and I fly it terribly!). I fly in the UK and have on occasion (!) flown in some pretty weak conditions. The ASW28 is the only new glider that I have not struggled to out climb. I feel the LS8 is the best weak weather Std Class glider. I think that the D2a is noticeably better than any other Std class glider at high speed. BTW, there are only few ASW28 for sale, while you can fill oceans with second hand LS8 and D2. I think that is a factually incorrect and certainly misleading. There does appear to be a glut of LS8's at the moment but I know of only 1 D2a. On the flipside of that, I know of at least 3 ASW28's that have been for sale for over a year. Why is that? I think they are overpriced and underperforming. If you´re looking for a ASW28, look have a look at: http://home.planet.nl/~holsw007/asw28/ ;-) They need all the help you can give them.......;-) Owain PS. Why are people so interested with looking at their tail? PPS. You will notice I say “think” and “feel” a lot. I have not measured anything but my views are from my experience and anecdotal evidence. |
#37
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Discus verus Discus 2, LS8, ASW 28
Jack
http://www.rsportscars.com/foto/03/carreragt06_11.jpg http://worldofstuart.excellentcontent.com/turd.jpg I hope my visual comparison is helpful. Tom At 14:42 23 October 2006, Jack wrote: Marc Ramsey wrote: Jack wrote: Enough already! How about the DG-303? You asking or suggesting? I'd like to see the DG-303 included in these comparisons. Jack |
#38
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Discus verus Discus 2, LS8, ASW 28
Tom Smith wrote:
Jack http://www.rsportscars.com/foto/03/carreragt06_11.jpg http://worldofstuart.excellentcontent.com/turd.jpg I hope my visual comparison is helpful. Thanks for pointing this out 8^) It does bring up an something I learned, though, during the period when I found racing gliders to be enjoyable. The difference in performance between, say, a DG-303 and a Discus 2A, is not enough to overcome poor piloting skills on a given day. On those days when things were clicking for me, and I was making the "right" choices, my turd could stay with or outrun everyone else in the standard class field. On a more typical day, I could be flying the only Discus 3 around, and still end up at the back of the pack. In my opinion, most of those obsessed with determining the "best" standard (or any) class glider, would be better off figuring out what they would be most comfortable flying, independent of whatever slight deficit in performance they might suffer from... Marc |
#39
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Discus verus Discus 2, LS8, ASW 28
Tom Smith wrote:
Jack http://www.rsportscars.com/foto/03/carreragt06_11.jpg http://worldofstuart.excellentcontent.com/turd.jpg I hope my visual comparison is helpful. Tom, I'm happy to see that you share my view that the DG-303 is incomparably better than the rest of the standard class field, and that any disparity in competition achievement is probably due to the relative quality of the pilots and/or numbers of aircraft built. Your equating the DG-303 with the 2006 Carerra GT in their respective fields was apt indeed, though the "turd" reference was perhaps a little harsh on the competition. I note that you are not a member of SSA. From what material does one usually build a glider in your corner of the universe? Jack --------------------------------------- At 14:42 23 October 2006, Jack wrote: Marc Ramsey wrote: Jack wrote: Enough already! How about the DG-303? You asking or suggesting? I'd like to see the DG-303 included in these comparisons. Jack |
#40
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Discus verus Discus 2, LS8, ASW 28
Tom,
I'm happy to see that you share my view that the DG-303 is incomparably better than the rest of the standard class field, and that any disparity in competition achievement is probably due to the relative quality of the pilots and/or numbers of aircraft built. Jack, You’re clearly suffering from a serious case of delusion! Your equating the DG-303 with the 2006 Carerra GT in their respective fields was apt indeed, though the 'turd' reference was perhaps a little harsh on the competition. I note that you are not a member of SSA. From what material does one usually build a glider in your corner of the universe? Funny you should ask; the rest of the universe has been wondering the same thing about your corner. We had concluded that your glider manufacturers had discovered how to isolate and work the ugly atom. Perhaps you could confirm or dispel these rumours. Many thanks, Tom |
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