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fixed wing or rotary wing?



 
 
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  #1  
Old March 10th 07, 03:12 PM posted to rec.aviation.rotorcraft
Craig Campbell
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3
Default fixed wing or rotary wing?

I am about to start my private pilot helicopter course. I have been told
that learning fixed wing first makes it much easier.
I am not sure what to do as my heart was set on rotary but I want to do it
right first time.

Can anyone please give me feedback on this?
Thanks
Craig Campbell


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  #2  
Old March 10th 07, 05:15 PM posted to rec.aviation.rotorcraft
601XL Builder
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 97
Default fixed wing or rotary wing?

Craig Campbell wrote:
I am about to start my private pilot helicopter course. I have been told
that learning fixed wing first makes it much easier.
I am not sure what to do as my heart was set on rotary but I want to do it
right first time.

Can anyone please give me feedback on this?
Thanks
Craig Campbell



If you plan on getting both get the fixed wing first. It will be cheaper.
  #3  
Old March 10th 07, 05:45 PM posted to rec.aviation.rotorcraft
Craig Campbell
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3
Default fixed wing or rotary wing?

I never really thought much about doing fixed wing, would that be worth
doing just to have or really only if I really wanted to use it?
"601XL Builder" [email protected] wrote in message
...
Craig Campbell wrote:
I am about to start my private pilot helicopter course. I have been told
that learning fixed wing first makes it much easier.
I am not sure what to do as my heart was set on rotary but I want to do
it right first time.

Can anyone please give me feedback on this?
Thanks
Craig Campbell


If you plan on getting both get the fixed wing first. It will be cheaper.



  #4  
Old March 10th 07, 07:21 PM posted to rec.aviation.rotorcraft
Stuart & Kathryn Fields
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 328
Default fixed wing or rotary wing?

Craig: I found that I had some Unlearning to do going from the "Stuck Wing"
to the helicopter. I haven't flown a " Stuck Wing" since I got my helo
add-on. The Stuck Wing license did help eliminate some cross country
navigation training that would have been more expensive in the helo.

--
Kathy Fields
Experimental Helo magazine
P. O. Box 1585
Inyokern, CA 93527
(760) 377-4478
(760) 408-9747 general and layout cell
(760) 608-1299 technical and advertising cell

www.vkss.com
www.experimentalhelo.com


"Craig Campbell" wrote in message
...
I never really thought much about doing fixed wing, would that be worth
doing just to have or really only if I really wanted to use it?
"601XL Builder" [email protected] wrote in message
...
Craig Campbell wrote:
I am about to start my private pilot helicopter course. I have been

told
that learning fixed wing first makes it much easier.
I am not sure what to do as my heart was set on rotary but I want to do
it right first time.

Can anyone please give me feedback on this?
Thanks
Craig Campbell


If you plan on getting both get the fixed wing first. It will be

cheaper.




  #5  
Old March 10th 07, 07:54 PM posted to rec.aviation.rotorcraft
Don W
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 52
Default fixed wing or rotary wing?

Craig Campbell wrote:

I never really thought much about doing fixed wing, would that be worth
doing just to have or really only if I really wanted to use it?
"601XL Builder" [email protected] wrote in message
...

Craig Campbell wrote:

I am about to start my private pilot helicopter course. I have been told
that learning fixed wing first makes it much easier.
I am not sure what to do as my heart was set on rotary but I want to do
it right first time.

Can anyone please give me feedback on this?
Thanks
Craig Campbell


If you plan on getting both get the fixed wing first. It will be cheaper.


If you don't plan on flying fixed wing, I'm not
sure it would be cheaper to get the fixed wing
license first. It's true that you can learn to
fly, navigate, and work the radios in $75/hr
airplanes instead of $200-$250/hr helicopters, but
you will still have to do the transition to
rotorcraft for your helicopter license.

The way I read Part 61.109 (copied below), the
minimum number hours you would have to have in a
helicopter for the transition would be:

3 hours (Combined Dual Night/Cross country)
2 hours (10 Dual takeoffs and landings to stop)
3 hours (Dual training prep for check ride)
10 hours (solo)
=====
18 hours helicopter minimum

If you could learn everything you needed to learn
on the helicopter in that time, it would be
incredible. A more likely transition scenario
would be something like 30 hours.

So in that case, you would save ten or so hours of
helicopter time, by spending 40 hours of fixed
wing time.

Doing the math with the following assumptions:

Fixed Wing = C150 @ $75/hr wet
Fixed Wing Instructor = $30/hr
Helicopter = R22 @ $225/hr wet
Heli Instructor = $30/hr
Heli Transition = 15 Dual, 10 Solo

Fixed wing plus Rotary route:

Fixed Wing (20*$105)+(20*$75)
Helicopter (15*$255)+(10*$225)
==============================
Total = $9,675 + Ground Instruction
and you would have a Fixed and Rotary Wing Rating

Heli only route:

Helicopter (20*$255)+(20*225)
=============================
Total = $9600 + Ground Instruction
and you would have Rotary Wing only rating

So it would probably be slightly more expensive to
start in fixed wing and transition to helicopter.

As far as the easy part, I found it relatively
easy to transition from fixed wing to the R22.

Regards,
Don W.

Part 61.109 (c)

c) For a helicopter rating. Except as provided in
paragraph (k) of this section, a person who
applies for a private pilot certificate with
rotorcraft category and helicopter class rating
must log at least 40 hours of flight time that
includes at least 20 hours of flight training from
an authorized instructor and 10 hours of solo
flight training in the areas of operation listed
in §61.107(b)(3) of this part, and the training
must include at least—

(1) 3 hours of cross-country flight training in a
helicopter;

(2) Except as provided in §61.110 of this part, 3
hours of night flight training in a helicopter
that includes—

(i) One cross-country flight of over 50 nautical
miles total distance; and

(ii) 10 takeoffs and 10 landings to a full stop
(with each landing involving a flight in the
traffic pattern) at an airport.

(3) 3 hours of flight training in preparation for
the practical test in a helicopter, which must
have been performed within 60 days preceding the
date of the test; and

(4) 10 hours of solo flight time in a helicopter,
consisting of at least—

(i) 3 hours cross-country time;

(ii) One solo cross-country flight of at least 75
nautical miles total distance, with landings at a
minimum of three points, and one segment of the
flight being a straight-line distance of at least
25 nautical miles between the takeoff and landing
locations; and

(iii) Three takeoffs and three landings to a full
stop (with each landing involving a flight in the
traffic pattern) at an airport with an operating
control tower.


  #6  
Old March 10th 07, 08:48 PM posted to rec.aviation.rotorcraft
Craig Campbell
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3
Default fixed wing or rotary wing?

Thanks for the break down of $'s Don. Okay so I suppose my next question
is.... Would it be of any benefit to me trying to get a helicopter pilot
job having also become rated in fixed wing? Am I a more attractive
applicant? Or are the two mutually exclusive?
Craig Campbell
"Don W" wrote in message
t...
Craig Campbell wrote:

I never really thought much about doing fixed wing, would that be worth
doing just to have or really only if I really wanted to use it?
"601XL Builder" [email protected] wrote in message
...

Craig Campbell wrote:

I am about to start my private pilot helicopter course. I have been
told that learning fixed wing first makes it much easier.
I am not sure what to do as my heart was set on rotary but I want to do
it right first time.

Can anyone please give me feedback on this?
Thanks
Craig Campbell

If you plan on getting both get the fixed wing first. It will be cheaper.


If you don't plan on flying fixed wing, I'm not sure it would be cheaper
to get the fixed wing license first. It's true that you can learn to fly,
navigate, and work the radios in $75/hr airplanes instead of $200-$250/hr
helicopters, but you will still have to do the transition to rotorcraft
for your helicopter license.

The way I read Part 61.109 (copied below), the minimum number hours you
would have to have in a helicopter for the transition would be:

3 hours (Combined Dual Night/Cross country)
2 hours (10 Dual takeoffs and landings to stop)
3 hours (Dual training prep for check ride)
10 hours (solo)
=====
18 hours helicopter minimum

If you could learn everything you needed to learn on the helicopter in
that time, it would be incredible. A more likely transition scenario
would be something like 30 hours.

So in that case, you would save ten or so hours of helicopter time, by
spending 40 hours of fixed wing time.

Doing the math with the following assumptions:

Fixed Wing = C150 @ $75/hr wet
Fixed Wing Instructor = $30/hr
Helicopter = R22 @ $225/hr wet
Heli Instructor = $30/hr
Heli Transition = 15 Dual, 10 Solo

Fixed wing plus Rotary route:

Fixed Wing (20*$105)+(20*$75)
Helicopter (15*$255)+(10*$225)
==============================
Total = $9,675 + Ground Instruction
and you would have a Fixed and Rotary Wing Rating

Heli only route:

Helicopter (20*$255)+(20*225)
=============================
Total = $9600 + Ground Instruction
and you would have Rotary Wing only rating

So it would probably be slightly more expensive to start in fixed wing and
transition to helicopter.

As far as the easy part, I found it relatively easy to transition from
fixed wing to the R22.

Regards,
Don W.

Part 61.109 (c)

c) For a helicopter rating. Except as provided in paragraph (k) of this
section, a person who applies for a private pilot certificate with
rotorcraft category and helicopter class rating must log at least 40 hours
of flight time that includes at least 20 hours of flight training from an
authorized instructor and 10 hours of solo flight training in the areas of
operation listed in §61.107(b)(3) of this part, and the training must
include at least—

(1) 3 hours of cross-country flight training in a helicopter;

(2) Except as provided in §61.110 of this part, 3 hours of night flight
training in a helicopter that includes—

(i) One cross-country flight of over 50 nautical miles total distance; and

(ii) 10 takeoffs and 10 landings to a full stop (with each landing
involving a flight in the traffic pattern) at an airport.

(3) 3 hours of flight training in preparation for the practical test in a
helicopter, which must have been performed within 60 days preceding the
date of the test; and

(4) 10 hours of solo flight time in a helicopter, consisting of at least—

(i) 3 hours cross-country time;

(ii) One solo cross-country flight of at least 75 nautical miles total
distance, with landings at a minimum of three points, and one segment of
the flight being a straight-line distance of at least 25 nautical miles
between the takeoff and landing locations; and

(iii) Three takeoffs and three landings to a full stop (with each landing
involving a flight in the traffic pattern) at an airport with an operating
control tower.




  #7  
Old March 10th 07, 09:53 PM posted to rec.aviation.rotorcraft
Steve L.[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2
Default fixed wing or rotary wing?

is.... Would it be of any benefit to me trying to get a helicopter pilot
job having also become rated in fixed wing? Am I a more attractive
applicant? Or are the two mutually exclusive?


Pretty much the latter. And if you go back to the costs, then there is
no doubt that exclusively helicopter time will be "cheaper".
To get a helo job, you need helo hours. That's what insurance asks for -
usually nobody is interested in your fixed wing hours.

Of course you could get your helicopter commercial with only 50 hours in
helicopters and the remaining 100 in something else. But first you
probably won't be good enough to pass the checkride and second you need
200 hours in helicopters anyway to get your first job which is going to
be instructing. Maybe even 300 hours (common insurance requirement).

So, if you are not interested in fixed wing, go with helicopter hours
wherever possible. Don't even use flight simulators - you need the real
hours. Save your money for the real hours, don't waste it for simulator,
fixed wing... IF you are serious about it. But try fixed wing also
(intro flight)!


  #8  
Old March 12th 07, 01:03 PM posted to rec.aviation.rotorcraft
B4RT
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 28
Default fixed wing or rotary wing?

Craig,

I'm dual rated and own both a turbine helicopter and a plane. I did
helicopter first, and am firmly convinced it was the right thing to do.

Airplanes and helicopters only have 3 things in common from a learning
perspective: rules n regs, radios, and cruise flight. The rest of the stuff
is different enough that extrapolating one to the other can lead to
problems. Even some the regs are different enough to give you a headache in
an exam.

I had logged a lot of time in rotorcraft before I did the transition to
fixed wing. It was a breeze and only took a week. I can't imagine the
inverse being true. The most difficult part for me was switching hands and
flying with the stick in my left hand and power on the right. Still today I
love flying military and aerobatic planes because I have a lot more finesse
with my right hand on the stick.

The biggest time eaters in rotorcraft training are IGE hovering,
autorotations, and approach to hover, and very little translates from
airplanes to choppers with these. I've talked to a few people who are dual
rated and have never run across anyone who did fixed-rotorcraft in the
minimum time prescribed by the FAA, so the money savings thing is a probably
a practical myth.

The best way to save money is to NOT do any training until you've saved
enough to do all of the fight time in a concentrated block of time. Pass
your written exam first while youre saving up the money. Having the exam out
of the way will relieve you of a lot of pressure so you can focus on the
expensive flght time. If you only take one or two lessons a week it will
probably take you at least 30% more flight hours to complete.

Bart



"Craig Campbell" wrote in message
...
I am about to start my private pilot helicopter course. I have been told
that learning fixed wing first makes it much easier.
I am not sure what to do as my heart was set on rotary but I want to do it
right first time.

Can anyone please give me feedback on this?
Thanks
Craig Campbell



  #9  
Old March 12th 07, 02:43 PM posted to rec.aviation.rotorcraft
Don W
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 52
Default fixed wing or rotary wing?

B4RT wrote:
I'm dual rated and own both a turbine helicopter and a plane. I did
helicopter first, and am firmly convinced it was the right thing to do.

Airplanes and helicopters only have 3 things in common from a learning
perspective: rules n regs, radios, and cruise flight. The rest of the stuff
is different enough that extrapolating one to the other can lead to
problems. Even some the regs are different enough to give you a headache in
an exam.

I had logged a lot of time in rotorcraft before I did the transition to
fixed wing. It was a breeze and only took a week. I can't imagine the
inverse being true.


We are pretty much in agreement. I've been
licensed in fixed wing since 1977, and recently
started flying helicopters for fun. I was able to
fly the helicopter in cruise flight right away,
and was able to basically hover IGE after 1 hour
of instruction. Basically means it wasn't the
prettiest hover, but pretty much stayed in one
place ;-)

At the end of the second hour of instruction, I
could lift up, taxi to the pad, and take off
without the instructor touching anything, and was
also starting to be able to transition from
approach to hover.

Somewhere around 5 hours, things were pretty well
clicking, and we were doing high speed taxis,
autos with power recovery, etc. I was flying the
R22 all the time except when the instructor went
to demonstrate something new. I was bringing the
R22 back from the pad to its parking spot among 6
other helis, and doing the necessary tail spin to
put it properly in its spot At that point, my
instructor told me that he felt I was ready to
solo, but the schools policy required 15 hours of
dual because of insurance. That was back in '04.

The biggest time eaters in rotorcraft training are IGE hovering,
autorotations, and approach to hover, and very little translates from
airplanes to choppers with these. I've talked to a few people who are dual
rated and have never run across anyone who did fixed-rotorcraft in the
minimum time prescribed by the FAA, so the money savings thing is a probably
a practical myth.


Agreed. The best you can hope for is fixed and
rotorcraft at basically the same price as
rotorcraft only. Also, I think for a student who
was new to flying, doing both would confuse the
issue. In my case, I'd been flying fixed so long
that I could concentrate on the differences with
the Heli.

The best way to save money is to NOT do any training until you've saved
enough to do all of the fight time in a concentrated block of time. Pass
your written exam first while youre saving up the money. Having the exam out
of the way will relieve you of a lot of pressure so you can focus on the
expensive flght time. If you only take one or two lessons a week it will
probably take you at least 30% more flight hours to complete.


This is good advice.


Bart


Don W.

  #10  
Old March 12th 07, 05:48 PM posted to rec.aviation.rotorcraft
Steve R
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 34
Default fixed wing or rotary wing?


"B4RT" wrote in message
...
Craig,

The best way to save money is to NOT do any training until you've saved
enough to do all of the fight time in a concentrated block of time. Pass
your written exam first while youre saving up the money. Having the exam
out of the way will relieve you of a lot of pressure so you can focus on
the expensive flght time. If you only take one or two lessons a week it
will probably take you at least 30% more flight hours to complete.

Bart


This is, as far as I'm concerned, the best advise of all. I can't comment
on the rest because I don't have enough overall experience to but I've seen
too many folks through the years start the process, run out of money, save
up more, and then start again. The problem is, you loose proficiency while
saving up more money and have to redo part of what you'd learned before when
you do get back into it. Every time you do that it's adding unnecessary
cost to an already expensive process.

Also, having that darned written test under your belt "before" you start
flight training is priceless. You've got the book learning done and can
concentrate 100% on the fun stuff, the flight training. Much of the book
learning didn't fully click in for me anyway until I was putting it to
practice in the aircraft. Oh, I could answer the questions on the test just
fine but it wasn't until I was in the aircraft that it "really" made sense.
I can't imagine how it would have been trying to get the concepts down in my
head from the book and trying to put them into practice in the aircraft at
the same time. Maybe it wouldn't have been any big deal but I'm "very"
happy with how it worked out getting the written done before I started
flying.

Good luck & Fly Safe,
Steve R.


 




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