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#61
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KJZI (Charleston Executive, S.C.) ILS RWY 9 DME Required
On Mar 13, 9:29*am, Sam Spade wrote:
wrote: Then again, I flew for a living, and my employer expected me to burn as little fuel as possible, and arrive on time, while doing it all safey and professionally. So again I ask of you, what am I doing UNSAFE? Where in my videos do I lack professionalism. I even have posted my videos to get input to up the anti of my game flying in the instrument world and been very clear about soliciting constructive feedback. What have you provided other then to say the videos are boring. I am all ears for safety. |
#63
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KJZI (Charleston Executive, S.C.) ILS RWY 9 DME Required
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#64
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KJZI (Charleston Executive, S.C.) ILS RWY 9 DME Required
Gents,
Thanks for the responses. Sorry to have incited such an argument. Sam, just curious, did you talk to FAA folks (friendlies, as you put it)? Thanks for the info. Interesting. You're saying it's misleading to show the 120R ADL versus just the CHS Radial and Distance. I agree if that's what you're saying. One of the big take-aways from this back-and-forth that surprised me was that no one talked about Visual Descent Points (VDPs), charted or otherwise. The point of a VDP is to indicate to the pilot when they are at a safe distance from the MAP at which point they can leave MDA (assuming they meet the requirements for leaving MDA). In lieu of a charted VDPs, make your own using the rule of 300 ft/nm descent rate. So if your MDA takes you to 600 AGL, leave MDA 2.0NM before the runway (again, assuming you're in a position to land and meet the reqs of descending below MDA). I believe in part it's to keep a/c from descending into the ground after the "DIVE/DRIVE" method and they break out way before MAP (especially at night). Airlines have redone a lot of their tactics on non-precision approaches, and the whole dive/drive method is somewhat outdated. It's preferred to have a fairly constant descent to MAP, just like an ILS approach or LPV. Getting down to MDA early can be dangerous if you have to drive for some distance before it's safe to descend to the runway. Anyway, thanks for the videos. It's good to see actual footage when most of the time I'm stuck inside thinking about flying. Last point. And I know the approach name doesn't call out ILS/DME, but what the heck do I do if I go missed and have to fess up that I don't have DME. I would imagine the FAA could come after me (in theory) since it's required per the procedural note. Thanks, Padraig On Mar 12, 3:46*pm, Sam Spade wrote: I got an answer from the friendlies. *The ALD radial is restricted below 6,000, thus DME is mandatory for BASSO. *I pointed out that charting the ALD R-120 as part of the fix composition on the approach chart is misleading. |
#65
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KJZI (Charleston Executive, S.C.) ILS RWY 9 DME Required
Padraig wrote
The point of a VDP is to indicate to the pilot when they are at a safe distance from the MAP at which point they can leave MDA (assuming they meet the requirements for leaving MDA). Nope!! As I pointed out to Atlieb, MDA has nothing to do with the MAP, the VDP has nothing to do with the MAP except that it must be outside the MAP. The following is the U.S. FAA's official definition of VDP: "A defined point on the final approach course of a nonprecision straight-in approach procedure from which normal descent from the MDA to the runway touchdown point may be commenced, provided the approach threshold of that runway, or approach lights, or other markings identifiable with the approach end of that runway are clearly visible to the pilot." Bob Moore |
#66
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KJZI (Charleston Executive, S.C.) ILS RWY 9 DME Required
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#67
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KJZI (Charleston Executive, S.C.) ILS RWY 9 DME Required
VOR-DME wrote:
For what it is worth, I am instrument rated, and current, and I am with Sam on this one. You are indeed expected to know what your ground speed is on final, within a reasonable margin of error, and the timing table (or your own time/speed calculation) is the correct way to determine the MAP. There are plenty of LOC approaches without DME, and not that many that actually require it. The minimums applied here, along with the penalties for no local altimeter etc are plenty conservative to make this a safe LOC approach without DME. It could simply be a charting mistake. If they really meant for DME to be required it would likely be in the name; ILS or LOC/DME RWY 9. No, that is not correct. Several years ago the naming convention was changed to include DME in the title only when it is required for the final approach segment. If it is required for the intermediate segment, or all of initial approach segments (if there is more than one) or the missed approach segment, it will be a note. In the case of the procedure that started this thread, DME is required for the missed approach holding fix, because the crossing radial does not pass flight inspection below 6,000. The crossing radial should not be shown in that case, but the procedures staff keeps it on there hoping that maintenance will eventually get it fixed so they remove the DME note. Yes, convoluted and confusing. |
#68
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KJZI (Charleston Executive, S.C.) ILS RWY 9 DME Required
Padraig wrote:
Gents, Thanks for the responses. Sorry to have incited such an argument. Sam, just curious, did you talk to FAA folks (friendlies, as you put it)? Thanks for the info. Interesting. You're saying it's misleading to show the 120R ADL versus just the CHS Radial and Distance. I agree if that's what you're saying. Yes, my work causes me to interface with AeroNav Services in OKC (formerly the National Flight Procedures Office), which is the office that designs and maintains instrument procedures. Anyone can review pending procedures and contact them through their web site at: http://naco.faa.gov/acifp.asp The links to the left side of the page will lead to other information, such as instrument procedures production plans. One of the big take-aways from this back-and-forth that surprised me was that no one talked about Visual Descent Points (VDPs), charted or otherwise. The point of a VDP is to indicate to the pilot when they are at a safe distance from the MAP at which point they can leave MDA (assuming they meet the requirements for leaving MDA). In lieu of a charted VDPs, make your own using the rule of 300 ft/nm descent rate. So if your MDA takes you to 600 AGL, leave MDA 2.0NM before the runway (again, assuming you're in a position to land and meet the reqs of descending below MDA). I believe in part it's to keep a/c from descending into the ground after the "DIVE/DRIVE" method and they break out way before MAP (especially at night). Airlines have redone a lot of their tactics on non-precision approaches, and the whole dive/drive method is somewhat outdated. It's preferred to have a fairly constant descent to MAP, just like an ILS approach or LPV. Getting down to MDA early can be dangerous if you have to drive for some distance before it's safe to descend to the runway. Anyway, thanks for the videos. It's good to see actual footage when most of the time I'm stuck inside thinking about flying. Last point. And I know the approach name doesn't call out ILS/DME, but what the heck do I do if I go missed and have to fess up that I don't have DME. I would imagine the FAA could come after me (in theory) since it's required per the procedural note. Thanks, Padraig On Mar 12, 3:46 pm, Sam Spade wrote: I got an answer from the friendlies. The ALD radial is restricted below 6,000, thus DME is mandatory for BASSO. I pointed out that charting the ALD R-120 as part of the fix composition on the approach chart is misleading. |
#69
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KJZI (Charleston Executive, S.C.) ILS RWY 9 DME Required
Padraig wrote:
One of the big take-aways from this back-and-forth that surprised me was that no one talked about Visual Descent Points (VDPs), charted or otherwise. The point of a VDP is to indicate to the pilot when they are at a safe distance from the MAP at which point they can leave MDA (assuming they meet the requirements for leaving MDA). In lieu of a charted VDPs, make your own using the rule of 300 ft/nm descent rate. So if your MDA takes you to 600 AGL, leave MDA 2.0NM before the runway (again, assuming you're in a position to land and meet the reqs of descending below MDA). I believe in part it's to keep a/c from descending into the ground after the "DIVE/DRIVE" method and they break out way before MAP (especially at night). The VDP is invaluable when it is charted. But, many NPAs don't have them because the charting requirements are rather stringent. Of course, use of a VDP requires leaving MDA prior to the MAP. ;-) |
#70
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KJZI (Charleston Executive, S.C.) ILS RWY 9 DME Required
Bob, sorry, substitute TDZ with MAP. My point is that generally a VDP
is measured from the end of the runway (beginning of TDZ) which is often where the MAP is (on RNAV approaches). Thanks. On Mar 16, 9:20*am, Bob Moore wrote: Padraig wrote *The point of a VDP is to indicate to the pilot when they are at a safe distance from the MAP at which point they can leave MDA (assuming they meet the requirements for leaving MDA). Nope!! As I pointed out to Atlieb, MDA has nothing to do with the MAP, the VDP has nothing to do with the MAP except that it must be outside the MAP.. The following is the U.S. FAA's official definition of VDP: "A defined point on the final approach course of a nonprecision straight-in approach procedure from which normal descent from the MDA to the runway touchdown point may be commenced, provided the approach threshold of that runway, or approach lights, or other markings identifiable with the approach end of that runway are clearly visible to the pilot." Bob Moore |
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