A tower-induced go-round

"Jay Honeck" wrote in message
ups.com...

Hard to say (I wasn't looking at my GPS). I'd say a mile out, maybe
two?


What did you do before GPS? You were approaching a 6000' runway. Were you
one runway-length out, or were you two runway-lengths out?



Probably 1/2 mile.


Sounds like plenty of room to me.



There was a 182 that had just called in, so he was 5+ miles out. I
agree the 172 stopping was the basic problem, ...


If you believed the basic problem was the 172's unexpected stop why was your
ire directed solely at the controller?



but the controller
should have instructed him to land long or keep rolling. He did
neither.


Why should he have done either? You said the 172 touched down 1500' from
the threshold, he DID land long. You said the unexpected stop was the
problem, there'd have been plenty of room if not for that. The AIM tells
pilots, "At airports with an operating control tower, pilots should not stop
or reverse course on the runway without first obtaining ATC approval." Why
should the controller have expected the 172 to act contrary to that?



I doubt it, but we'll see.


You think people will choose to be control tower operators when they can
make more money doing something else?

"Jay Honeck" writes:

If you had adequate spacing behind the 172 the controller's
decision to make it number one does not sound too bad. The
problem seems to be the 172's unexpected stop. Was there
additional traffic behind you?

There was a 182 that had just called in, so he was 5+ miles out. I
agree the 172 stopping was the basic problem, but the controller
should have instructed him to land long or keep rolling. He did
neither.

But on the other hand, you should not space yourself in the circuit
with such a presumption. Even if the controller makes such an
instruction, there is no guarantee that a pilot will be able to carry
out out in a way convenient to you.

- FChE

TheSmokingGnu wrote:


Then you should have quoted him the right-of way rules (planes below
have right over those above, planes on approach have right over those in
the pattern), and told him that you were taking your CLEARANCE and using
the RUNWAY.

There are no right of way rules at controlled airports.




If he was routing other traffic, he should have indicated that in your
clearance.



No.

Except when requested by the controller or in
emergency situations, a 360 degree turn should never be executed in the
traffic pattern or when receiving radar service without first advising the
controller.

Yep, although I couldn't quote chapter and verse, this is what I
figured the rules were.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

There was a 182 that had just called in, so he was 5+ miles out. I
agree the 172 stopping was the basic problem, ...

If you believed the basic problem was the 172's unexpected stop why was your
ire directed solely at the controller?

Because I'm not going to blame a student for stopping short. Hell, he
probably didn't even know I was behind him, if he was nervous.

Face it, the controller should have had the 172 follow me in. He
misjudged the spacing. (He didn't have a GPS either... :-)

but the controller
should have instructed him to land long or keep rolling. He did
neither.

Why should he have done either?

Because it would have easily fixed the mess the controller caused.
Stretching out his roll-out would have made everything mesh
effortlessly. Instead, the controller kept mum, and caused a runway
conflict.

You think people will choose to be control tower operators when they can
make more money doing something else?

Yes -- for many of the same reasons that I choose to run a little
aviation themed hotel next to an airport, even though I could be
making exponentially more money doing something else.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

But on the other hand, you should not space yourself in the circuit
with such a presumption. Even if the controller makes such an
instruction, there is no guarantee that a pilot will be able to carry
out out in a way convenient to you.

I presumed nothing, other than that I was cleared to land. When the
controller revoked that clearance (by inadvertently misjudging the
spacing between aircraft) I went around -- simple as that.

The only reason I posted this experience here was because it was a
"first" for Mary and me, in over 1700 hours of flying over 12 years.
It wasn't dangerous, or difficult -- but it *was* unusual.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

Jay Honeck wrote:
Except when requested by the controller or in
emergency situations, a 360 degree turn should never be executed in the
traffic pattern or when receiving radar service without first advising the
controller.


Yep, although I couldn't quote chapter and verse, this is what I
figured the rules were.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"



I did a 360 once in the pattern at a class D airport. the tower and the
conflicting traffic forgot about me. I was on final. he turned traffic
following me inthe pattern in front of me. The other traffic had no
awareness... I keyed the mike to let them know what was going on...
doh. got stepped on. did a 360 and then called AFTER. I was not
worried about doing something wrong - I was worried about getting killed
by the controller who dropped the ball and two pilots in the other plane
who were not paying attention to what the heck was going on in the pattern.

It happens too often. Do what you need to do to stay alive.

I did a 360 once in the pattern at a class D airport.

That's why I contend that Class D stands for "D'oh!", and is the most
dangerous airspace in America.

I'll take an uncontrolled airport over non-radar Class D, any day of
the week.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

On Mar 18, 5:57 pm, "Jay Honeck" wrote:
I did a 360 once in the pattern at a class D airport.

That's why I contend that Class D stands for "D'oh!", and is the most
dangerous airspace in America.

Sorry, Tim -- that came out sounding like I thought you were stupid
for making a 360 in the pattern. That's NOT what I meant -- I only
mean that Class D is a dangerous place, thanks to us relying on guys
in a tower with binoculars for spacing, and controllers relying on
guys in airplanes who don't know where the heck they really are.

I agree completely with your rationale for doing what you had to do.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

Jay Honeck wrote:
I did a 360 once in the pattern at a class D airport.


That's why I contend that Class D stands for "D'oh!", and is the most
dangerous airspace in America.

I'll take an uncontrolled airport over non-radar Class D, any day of
the week.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"



I have been to many fine class D airports. I would take most over the
uncontrolled fields I have been. Cowboys for sure at the uncontrolled
airport near me. I was put on a waiting list at KFRG - glad I decided
to skip that. It is too busy - busier than the class c near here and
the controllers are rude. Then went to KHWV - that is a dangerous place
to fly - non-towered - insane amounts of scary piloting there and I am
finally at KISP - class C. I like it. Very professional people. Itis
nice to have radar services as the default and good for IFR flights
instead of going non towered.

I was at KPHF - that was a great class D.