Right seat flying

"Brad Z" wrote in message news:Kphlc.14276$_41.910388@attbi_s02...
Check the date genius, that post was from 2001.



well genius yourself. was the original post not cut and pasted into
the post ?????????????????????????????????????????????????? ????????????????

Dave S wrote in message link.net...
There was no reference to the sightseeing flight being for profit. Hence
that is part 91. Hence the part 135 regulations do not apply.

Thank you for playing.
Dave

oh a childish retort A-La Tarver.

read 135.1 /135.3


running with scissors wrote:

Rich Ahrens wrote in message isi.com...

running with scissors wrote:


Andrew Sarangan wrote in message
. 146.158...


(running with scissors)
wrote in om:

As a question, why would you want to place a passenger in the
left seat? what purpose would it serve ?

There are regulations pertaining to this, and if you are indeed
doing your instructors rating you should have gained a reasonable
knowledge of the FAR's and furthermore have an understaning of
CRM.

Please cite the paragraph number of this regulation that pertains
to right seat flying.


read the FAR's and the AFM.

In other words, you can't come up with a regulatory reference.


135.113/135.115 & read under part 23/25m and i admit to not adding the
reference to renters policy and insurance

"Brad Z" wrote in message news:2ajlc.14391$TD4.1830334@attbi_s01...
Nice try. Even if this did apply to part 135, no one said anything about
manipulation of the controls by the passenger, hence 135.115 doesn't apply.
And if 135.113 did apply, the passenger couldn't ride in the right seat
either, since it is a pilot's seat.

read 135.1/135.3 and the AFM.


"running with scissors" wrote in
message om...
Rich Ahrens wrote in message
isi.com...
running with scissors wrote:

Andrew Sarangan wrote in message
.158...

(running with scissors)
wrote in om:

As a question, why would you want to place a passenger in the
left seat? what purpose would it serve ?

There are regulations pertaining to this, and if you are indeed
doing your instructors rating you should have gained a reasonable
knowledge of the FAR's and furthermore have an understaning of
CRM.

Please cite the paragraph number of this regulation that pertains
to right seat flying.


read the FAR's and the AFM.

In other words, you can't come up with a regulatory reference.

135.113/135.115 & read under part 23/25m and i admit to not adding the
reference to renters policy and insurance

(Robert M. Gary) wrote in message . com...
When I was working on my CFI rating I woudl put my student pilot in
the left seat because I didn't have brakes on the right side. The FSDO
said the person working the brakes didn't need any certification (of
course I was responsible for ensuring he knew how to work them). I did
not try to give him instruction.

BTW: I had to write a letter to my insurance company. If you don't
notify them that you are flying left seat and you put someone else in
the left, they will likely believe the left seat was the flying pilot.
My agent said the warning letter fixes this.

exactly. spot on.




(Teacherjh) wrote in message ...

In the third paragraph
they say that it is illegal for a non-instructor pilot to fly in the
right seat with a non-pilot in the left seat.


In the United States, there is no regulation as far as I know that dictates
what seat the Pilot In Command must utilize, except that it must be a control
seat, which I take to mean a seat with controls. Nothing I am aware of
prevents a pilot from flying solo in the right seat, the front seat, the back
seat, or even a passenger seat (with strings attached to the yoke).

I believe the author is incorrect.

Jose

I'm not aware of any FARs specifically prohibiting it. However if something
were to happen, and you hadn't had some training in the right seat, they
could
get you with the old "careless and reckless" part if they thought flying
from over
there contributed.



"Matt Whiting" wrote in message
...
This isn't an IFR related question, but I don't see an r.a group devoted
to instruction. I just received the May/June issue of Aviator's Guide
and they make an interesting claim on page 38. In the third paragraph
they say that it is illegal for a non-instructor pilot to fly in the
right seat with a non-pilot in the left seat. I've never thought about
doing this, but never considered that it could be illegal. Can anyone
here confirm this, preferably with a reference to the approriate FAR?
I've never come across an FAR that addressed this before.


Matt

(running with scissors)
wrote:

Does anybody know if there is any regulations about flying from the right
seat?

You can sit in any crewmember seat you want unless there are stated
limitations in the limitations section of the POH, Owner's Manual,
TCDS, or any other FAA approved placards, etc.to the contrary.

running with scissors wrote:
Matt Whiting wrote in message ...

running with scissors wrote:

Bob Moore wrote in message .8...


(running with scissors) wrote



you may be able to find a loophole in the FAR's, renters policy or
insurance requirements to allow you to do this "legally", though even
posing the question indicates a complete failure to understand CRM and
lack of professionalism. if i found one of my pilots acting in this
manner he would never be in one of my cockpits again forthwith.

As if your posting name didn't say enough about you, your entire post
says that you are either very inexperienced or lacking in confidence
in yourself and other pilots. It's been years since I have flown from
the left seat of a general aviation aircraft. A few years back when I
was flying 12-13 year old "Young Eagles", I never sat in the left seat,
and as a matter-of-fact, very seldom touched the controls.

The CFI who did my last Flight Review was amused when I flew the entire
flight including the instrument portion from the right seat of a C-172.

Bob Moore


you are missing the whole point of the post. the original poster
stated that it was sightseeing flight and it was a passenger, zero
experience, who would be in the left seat and the poster was not a
rated instructor.

You've now made this incorrect assertion at least three times. You may
want to review the thread before making such bold statements.

Matt


quote

From: Anthony Acri )
Subject: Right Seat Flying

Date: 2001-12-11 03:21:43 PST



Does anybody know if there is any regulations about flying from the right
seat? Would like to flyi from the right seat while taking some people up
for sightseeing. Have been flying from the right when I have been doing my
instructors courses.

Thanks

end quote

That wasn't the "original post." Is this a hard concept to understand?

Matt

Matt Whiting wrote:
running with scissors wrote:

From: Anthony Acri )
Subject: Right Seat Flying



Date: 2001-12-11 03:21:43 PST




Does anybody know if there is any regulations about flying from the


right

seat? Would like to flyi from the right seat while taking some


people up

for sightseeing. Have been flying from the right when I have been


doing my

instructors courses.



Thanks



As a question, why would you want to place a passenger in the left
seat? what purpose would it serve ?


You might be helping a student pilot work on some procedures in between
their lessons. I went back and re-read Amy's article and she did say
student pilot, however, I don't see why it matters whether the left seat
occupant is a student pilot or a non-pilot. I've never come across an
FAR that says I can't fly from the right seat, no matter who is in the
left seat or whether it is empty.

I heard back from Amy. As I stated above, she was referring
specifically to a student pilot and apparently the "sole manipulator"
rule prohibits a non-instructor pilot from allowing a student pilot to
manipulate the controls as this would constitute the student pilot
carrying a passenger. However, I don't see why this would matter which
seat you were sitting in. If this is illegal, seems it would be as
illegal to have the student in the right seat. It also seems odd that
you can let a non-student handle the controls and be legal, but can't
let a student pilot legally fly when you are in the airplane.

I would have posted Amy's email here, but she didn't respond to my
request for permission to do so and I don't consider it good etiquette
to post an email sent to me without the author's OK.


Matt

Matt Whiting wrote:
I heard back from Amy. As I stated above, she was referring
specifically to a student pilot and apparently the "sole manipulator"
rule prohibits a non-instructor pilot from allowing a student pilot to
manipulate the controls as this would constitute the student pilot
carrying a passenger. However, I don't see why this would matter which
seat you were sitting in. If this is illegal, seems it would be as
illegal to have the student in the right seat. It also seems odd that
you can let a non-student handle the controls and be legal, but can't
let a student pilot legally fly when you are in the airplane.

That, of course, is even crazier. There is no rule that prevents
a non-instructor pilot from letting someone else manipulate the
controls, or even takeoff and land the plane. The "sole manipulator"
rule applies to logging time (and even with that there was some
odd letter from the FAA implying that if there were no one else
on board who could possibly be PIC, you could log the time that
a passenger was manipulating the controls).

A student isn't "carrying a passenger" if he or she manipulates
the controls when someone else is PIC. The PIC is responsible
for the plane and the passenger no matter who is at the controls.

--
David Rind

David Rind wrote:
Matt Whiting wrote:

I heard back from Amy. As I stated above, she was referring
specifically to a student pilot and apparently the "sole manipulator"
rule prohibits a non-instructor pilot from allowing a student pilot to
manipulate the controls as this would constitute the student pilot
carrying a passenger. However, I don't see why this would matter
which seat you were sitting in. If this is illegal, seems it would be
as illegal to have the student in the right seat. It also seems odd
that you can let a non-student handle the controls and be legal, but
can't let a student pilot legally fly when you are in the airplane.


That, of course, is even crazier. There is no rule that prevents
a non-instructor pilot from letting someone else manipulate the
controls, or even takeoff and land the plane. The "sole manipulator"
rule applies to logging time (and even with that there was some
odd letter from the FAA implying that if there were no one else
on board who could possibly be PIC, you could log the time that
a passenger was manipulating the controls).

A student isn't "carrying a passenger" if he or she manipulates
the controls when someone else is PIC. The PIC is responsible
for the plane and the passenger no matter who is at the controls.

The FAA isn't always logical. I got a third email from Amy and she said
an acquaintance of hers was a student pilot and went up with another
pilot (not an instructor) and was flying in the left seat. The FAA
caught wind of this and made the claim that the student was acting as
PIC because they were the sole manipulator of the controls and was
seated in the left seat which is traditionally the seat occupied by the
PIC. Since another person was in the airplane at the time, the student
lost their certificate for 120 days for carrying a passenger illegally.

She said this was challenged and was upheld in court. I don't know all
the details and am not going to send Amy a 4th email, but I have no
reason to doubt what she's saying. I've read enough stories about FAA
actions and NTSB appeals to know that logic seems often absent in these
proceedings.


Matt