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#61
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"Ron Rosenfeld" wrote in message ... So you are saying that Jeppesen's charting conventions, in which they interpret the applicaple FAA forms 8260 are incorrect? No, I'm saying the FARs prohibit the PT under specific conditions, they say nothing about when a PT is required. I'm not familiar with Jeppesen's charting conventions, I'm not in a position to say anything about them. |
#62
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"Ron Rosenfeld" wrote in message ... 14 CFR Part 97 What section? |
#63
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"Ron Rosenfeld" wrote in message ... To elaborate, it is in the Jepp interpretation of the FAA published approach procedure. These procedures are regulatory by virtue of 14 CFR 97 and must be followed by virtue of 14 CFR 91 Then it appears that Jepp misinterpreted. Because the requirement is noted in TERPS which is used to design the approach. The TERPs requirements apply only to the design of the procedure. |
#64
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"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message
ink.net... "Gary Drescher" wrote in message ... "Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message ink.net... "Gary Drescher" wrote in message ... You'll find no FAR that explicitly requires performing a charted PT *regardless* of whether or not the PT meets the TERPS criteria. That doesn't make all the PTs optional, does it? Of course not. So then when is a PT mandatory, and by virtue of which regulation? It's never mandatory by virtue of regulation. Then when is a PT mandatory, and by virtue of what if not regulation? --Gary |
#65
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On Mon, 03 Oct 2005 00:35:29 GMT, "Steven P. McNicoll"
wrote: "Ron Rosenfeld" wrote in message .. . To elaborate, it is in the Jepp interpretation of the FAA published approach procedure. These procedures are regulatory by virtue of 14 CFR 97 and must be followed by virtue of 14 CFR 91 Then it appears that Jepp misinterpreted. Since 14 CFR 97 states that the SIAP's are included by reference, it would seem that the regulatory nature of these SIAP's is pretty clear. Because the requirement is noted in TERPS which is used to design the approach. The TERPs requirements apply only to the design of the procedure. And the procedures based on TERPs are regulatory. Steve, Myself, Jepp, as well as FAA published legal opinion all agree that a PT must be flown if the pilot is cleared for a SIAP which includes a PT, and for which one of the 91.175 exceptions is not present. SIAP's ARE regulatory. They are included, by reference, in 14 CFR 97. It is certainly your right to disagree with Jeppesen's interpretation, and with the FAA Assistant Chief Counsel Regulatory Division's interpretation. Myself, I will choose to rely on their opinions, and encourage others to do the same. ========================================== Nov. 28, 1994 Mr. Tom Young, Chairman Charting and Instrument Procedures Committee Air Line Pilots Association 535 Herndon Parkway Herndon, VA 22070 Dear Mr. Young, .... A SIAP may or may not prescribe a procedure turn based on the application of certain criteria contained in the TERPs. However, if a SIAP does contain a procedure turn and ATC has cleared a pilot to execute the SIAP, the pilot must make the procedure turn when one of the conditions of Section 91.175(j) is not present. If you have any questions regarding this matter, please contact Patricia R. Lane, Manager, Airspace and Air Traffic Law Branch, at (202) 267-3491. Sincerely, /s/ Patricia R. Lane for Donald P. Byrne Assistant Chief Counsel Regulations Division =========================================== Title 14: Aeronautics and Space PART 97—STANDARD INSTRUMENT APPROACH PROCEDURES Subpart C—TERPS Procedures § 97.20 General. (a) This subpart prescribes standard instrument procedures and weather takeoff minimums based on the criteria contained in FAA Order 8260.3, U.S. Standard for Terminal Instrument Procedures (TERPs), and other related Orders in the 8260 series that also address instrument procedure design criteria. (b) Standard instrument procedures and associated supporting data adopted by the FAA are documented on FAA Forms 8260–3, 8260–4, 8260–5. Weather takeoff minimums are documented on FAA Form 8260–15A. These forms are incorporated by reference. The Director of the Federal Register approved this incorporation by reference pursuant to 5 U.S.C. 552(a) and 1 CFR part 51... ================================== Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA) |
#66
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"Gary Drescher" wrote in message ... Then when is a PT mandatory, and by virtue of what if not regulation? It's mandatory when it is necessary to reverse direction to establish the aircraft on an intermediate or final approach course, by virtue of the need to reverse direction to establish the aircraft on an intermediate or final approach course. This really isn't that hard. |
#67
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On Sun, 2 Oct 2005 21:15:13 -0400, "Gary Drescher"
wrote: "Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message link.net... "Gary Drescher" wrote in message ... "Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message ink.net... "Gary Drescher" wrote in message ... You'll find no FAR that explicitly requires performing a charted PT *regardless* of whether or not the PT meets the TERPS criteria. That doesn't make all the PTs optional, does it? Of course not. So then when is a PT mandatory, and by virtue of which regulation? It's never mandatory by virtue of regulation. Then when is a PT mandatory, and by virtue of what if not regulation? --Gary According to both Jepp, and the FAA (regulatory division counsel), a PT is mandatory if the pilot is cleared for a SIAP that includes one, and one of the 91.175 exceptions does not apply. SIAP's are regulatory, incorporated (by reference) into 14 CFR 97 Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA) |
#68
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In article . net,
"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote: "rps" wrote in message oups.com... I'm still confused. Assuming the following facts, how would you fly the ILS RWY 28R at KSFO .... I wouldn't turn right at CEPIN even if I was ahead of my filed ETA. There's no way to turn at MENLO, the procedure goes only to CEPIN from MENLO. Turning left at CEPIN certainly makes intuitive sense, but if that's the right thing to do then why is MENLO-CEPIN not marked NoPT? There are three (and only three) possibilities: 1. You are required to turn right at CEPIN and hold at DUMBA. 2. The absence of a NoPT designation is meaningless. 3. MENLO-CEPIN should be marked NoPT; the fact that it isn't is a mistake. Given that the ILS 28L approach has an almost identical segment (MENLO-HEMAN) that IS marked NoPT my money is on #3. rg |
#69
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"Ron Garret" wrote in message ... Turning left at CEPIN certainly makes intuitive sense, but if that's the right thing to do then why is MENLO-CEPIN not marked NoPT? There are three (and only three) possibilities: 1. You are required to turn right at CEPIN and hold at DUMBA. 2. The absence of a NoPT designation is meaningless. 3. MENLO-CEPIN should be marked NoPT; the fact that it isn't is a mistake. Given that the ILS 28L approach has an almost identical segment (MENLO-HEMAN) that IS marked NoPT my money is on #3. I don't see why MENLO..HEMAN should be marked NoPT. If you're beginning the ILS RWY 28R at MENLO you're not going to cross the holding fix DUMBA. |
#70
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"Ron Rosenfeld" wrote in message ... Since 14 CFR 97 states that the SIAP's are included by reference, it would seem that the regulatory nature of these SIAP's is pretty clear. It is to me. And the procedures based on TERPs are regulatory. Please cite the FAR that requires a charted PT to be flown whenever one of the prohibitions of FAR 91.175(j) is not applicable. Steve, Myself, Jepp, as well as FAA published legal opinion all agree that a PT must be flown if the pilot is cleared for a SIAP which includes a PT, and for which one of the 91.175 exceptions is not present. SIAP's ARE regulatory. They are included, by reference, in 14 CFR 97. It is certainly your right to disagree with Jeppesen's interpretation, and with the FAA Assistant Chief Counsel Regulatory Division's interpretation. Myself, I will choose to rely on their opinions, and encourage others to do the same. ========================================== Nov. 28, 1994 Mr. Tom Young, Chairman Charting and Instrument Procedures Committee Air Line Pilots Association 535 Herndon Parkway Herndon, VA 22070 Dear Mr. Young, ... A SIAP may or may not prescribe a procedure turn based on the application of certain criteria contained in the TERPs. However, if a SIAP does contain a procedure turn and ATC has cleared a pilot to execute the SIAP, the pilot must make the procedure turn when one of the conditions of Section 91.175(j) is not present. If you have any questions regarding this matter, please contact Patricia R. Lane, Manager, Airspace and Air Traffic Law Branch, at (202) 267-3491. Sincerely, /s/ Patricia R. Lane for Donald P. Byrne Assistant Chief Counsel Regulations Division =========================================== Title 14: Aeronautics and Space PART 97-STANDARD INSTRUMENT APPROACH PROCEDURES Subpart C-TERPS Procedures § 97.20 General. (a) This subpart prescribes standard instrument procedures and weather takeoff minimums based on the criteria contained in FAA Order 8260.3, U.S. Standard for Terminal Instrument Procedures (TERPs), and other related Orders in the 8260 series that also address instrument procedure design criteria. (b) Standard instrument procedures and associated supporting data adopted by the FAA are documented on FAA Forms 8260-3, 8260-4, 8260-5. Weather takeoff minimums are documented on FAA Form 8260-15A. These forms are incorporated by reference. The Director of the Federal Register approved this incorporation by reference pursuant to 5 U.S.C. 552(a) and 1 CFR part 51... ================================== I am aware of that interpretation, I am also aware that is NOT an interpretation supported by the FARs. |
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