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#1
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Kills with Guns
Whevever I see a TV show about the F-4, all the AF guys do is bitch
about the early models not having a gun. Just how many kills (if any) have the F-14, F-15, F-16, and F-18 had with guns??? |
#2
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Kills with Guns
"Schlomo Lipchitz" wrote in message ... Whevever I see a TV show about the F-4, all the AF guys do is bitch about the early models not having a gun. Just how many kills (if any) have the F-14, F-15, F-16, and F-18 had with guns??? On the Navy side, Zero for the F-14 and F-18. I don't think the USAF F-15/16 drivers have ever gotten a gun kill either, it's possible the Israelis have. With modern missile systems, you generally have to drive through the missile envelope to get to guns, so it makes little sense to pass up the opportunity and expose yourself more than necessary. A gun kill in a post-Vietnam world would also often require entering a hard-maneuvering engagement that is generally an unhealthy place to be. An interesting note. Most Vietnam gun kills were scored by the F-105, perhaps the least maneuverable aircraft in wide service there. R / John |
#3
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Kills with Guns
Israeli pilots have made gun kills with the F-15, and I believe, the F-16.
Maybe a Pakistani F-16 gun kill too. And in Venezuela, pilots have also made guns kills with the F-16. I think all of the US F-14 and -18 kills have been with Sidewinders. In Vietnam, the lack of a gun in the F-4 was probably less of a problem than poor tactical training and ROE/lack of early BVR NCTR. Not to mention poor missile reliabilities. I say this based on the Crusader's lack of gun kills. But it's a catchy bitching phrase to talk about the lack of a gun as a major disadvantage. TV "Schlomo Lipchitz" wrote in message ... Whevever I see a TV show about the F-4, all the AF guys do is bitch about the early models not having a gun. Just how many kills (if any) have the F-14, F-15, F-16, and F-18 had with guns??? |
#4
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Kills with Guns
On the Navy side, Zero for the F-14 and F-18. I don't think the USAF
F-15/16 drivers have ever gotten a gun kill either, it's possible the Israelis have. With modern missile systems, you generally have to drive through the missile envelope to get to guns, so it makes little sense to pass up the opportunity and expose yourself more than necessary. A gun kill in a post-Vietnam world would also often require entering a hard-maneuvering engagement that is generally an unhealthy place to be. According to a recent interview I saw on TV, at least one Israeli pilot got a guns kill in a F-15 on a Mig-21 solely for the prestige of getting a guns kill. That blurs the fine line between being bold and being stupid! Hard to argue with their record though. Funny comment about the Thud kills- it reminds of G.I. Basel's: "It wasn't a memorable battle. They didn't see me. I whispered 'Jesus' and filled the sky with 20 mm bullets. It didn't seem fair, I wanted to honk or something." Perhaps the most humble account of an a-a kill I've ever heard! TV |
#5
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Kills with Guns
On Jun 30, 1:54 pm, "John Carrier" wrote:
"Schlomo Lipchitz" wrote in message ... Whevever I see a TV show about the F-4, all the AF guys do is bitch about the early models not having a gun. Just how many kills (if any) have the F-14, F-15, F-16, and F-18 had with guns??? On the Navy side, Zero for the F-14 and F-18. I don't think the USAF F-15/16 drivers have ever gotten a gun kill either, it's possible the Israelis have. With modern missile systems, you generally have to drive through the missile envelope to get to guns, so it makes little sense to pass up the opportunity and expose yourself more than necessary. A gun kill in a post-Vietnam world would also often require entering a hard-maneuvering engagement that is generally an unhealthy place to be. An interesting note. Most Vietnam gun kills were scored by the F-105, perhaps the least maneuverable aircraft in wide service there. No Crusader gun kills? R / John |
#6
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Kills with Guns
An interesting note. Most Vietnam gun kills were scored by the F-105,
perhaps the least maneuverable aircraft in wide service there. John, there ought to be some interesting stories about those kills. vince norris |
#7
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Kills with Guns
No Crusader gun kills?
If I'm not mistaken, there were only 3-4 kills out of the 19-20 that the Crusader got in Vietnam. The rest were Sidewinder kills. So like I said below, this goes against the idea of the gun being critical to a-a success in Vietnam. Only a fool would argue that it wouldn't have helped to have a gun on all the F-4s, but it wouldn't have been as revolutionary as some claim IMO. There were F-4 gun kills too, but again, far fewer than missile kills (even for the -E). ROE, training, NCTR, and missile reliability were the more critical factors IMO. TV |
#8
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Kills with Guns
wrote in message oups.com... On Jun 30, 1:54 pm, "John Carrier" wrote: "Schlomo Lipchitz" wrote in message ... Whevever I see a TV show about the F-4, all the AF guys do is bitch about the early models not having a gun. Just how many kills (if any) have the F-14, F-15, F-16, and F-18 had with guns??? On the Navy side, Zero for the F-14 and F-18. I don't think the USAF F-15/16 drivers have ever gotten a gun kill either, it's possible the Israelis have. With modern missile systems, you generally have to drive through the missile envelope to get to guns, so it makes little sense to pass up the opportunity and expose yourself more than necessary. A gun kill in a post-Vietnam world would also often require entering a hard-maneuvering engagement that is generally an unhealthy place to be. An interesting note. Most Vietnam gun kills were scored by the F-105, perhaps the least maneuverable aircraft in wide service there. No Crusader gun kills? The question was about the modern aircraft. For the F-8, if I counted correctly, 4 with the gun only, 3 more sidewinder + gun. And one with no ordnance expended ;-). R / John |
#9
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Kills with Guns
On Jul 1, 7:24 am, "John Carrier" wrote:
wrote in message oups.com... On Jun 30, 1:54 pm, "John Carrier" wrote: "Schlomo Lipchitz" wrote in message ... Whevever I see a TV show about the F-4, all the AF guys do is bitch about the early models not having a gun. Just how many kills (if any) have the F-14, F-15, F-16, and F-18 had with guns??? On the Navy side, Zero for the F-14 and F-18. I don't think the USAF F-15/16 drivers have ever gotten a gun kill either, it's possible the Israelis have. With modern missile systems, you generally have to drive through the missile envelope to get to guns, so it makes little sense to pass up the opportunity and expose yourself more than necessary. A gun kill in a post-Vietnam world would also often require entering a hard-maneuvering engagement that is generally an unhealthy place to be. An interesting note. Most Vietnam gun kills were scored by the F-105, perhaps the least maneuverable aircraft in wide service there. No Crusader gun kills? The question was about the modern aircraft. Hey, you brought up the 105s.....22.5 gun kills? I just figured the Crusaders had gotten a few because they were the last "gunfighters". For the F-8, if I counted correctly, 4 with the gun only, 3 more sidewinder + gun. And one with no ordnance expended ;-). The old "He's on my tail....eject!" or just flew into the ground trying to evade? R / John- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - |
#10
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Kills with Guns
wrote in message ups.com... On Jul 1, 7:24 am, "John Carrier" wrote: wrote in message oups.com... On Jun 30, 1:54 pm, "John Carrier" wrote: "Schlomo Lipchitz" wrote in message ... Whevever I see a TV show about the F-4, all the AF guys do is bitch about the early models not having a gun. Just how many kills (if any) have the F-14, F-15, F-16, and F-18 had with guns??? On the Navy side, Zero for the F-14 and F-18. I don't think the USAF F-15/16 drivers have ever gotten a gun kill either, it's possible the Israelis have. With modern missile systems, you generally have to drive through the missile envelope to get to guns, so it makes little sense to pass up the opportunity and expose yourself more than necessary. A gun kill in a post-Vietnam world would also often require entering a hard-maneuvering engagement that is generally an unhealthy place to be. An interesting note. Most Vietnam gun kills were scored by the F-105, perhaps the least maneuverable aircraft in wide service there. No Crusader gun kills? The question was about the modern aircraft. Hey, you brought up the 105s.....22.5 gun kills? I just figured the Crusaders had gotten a few because they were the last "gunfighters". For the F-8, if I counted correctly, 4 with the gun only, 3 more sidewinder + gun. And one with no ordnance expended ;-). The old "He's on my tail....eject!" or just flew into the ground trying to evade? Frank Bachman and Jerry Tucker (VF-24 IIRC, Hancock) got a vector in second half of '72. The Crusader community was quite frustrated by this time because only the F-4's were getting vectors, let alone getting tally-ho's. Canopy flash at about 5 NM, started a conversion with a Mig-17 and visually ID'd the bandit with a bit more than 90 to go. Prior to rolling out in envelope, the guy ejected. They thought it'd be pretty cool, one Mig kill shared, no ordnance expended. Ship was given credit for the kill. No telling what was going on with the Mig driver. Perhaps under training on his first FAM solo. A mainenance check flight gone bad. Maybe a cripple just trying to limp home. Allegedly, the Vietnamese transmitted something akin to "Oh !*&!!", they're F-8's" and then punched. Good sea story regardless, and like many somewhat improbable and colorful in the community, true. R / John |
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